This comment was from NickMostly, replying to Joanna Schroeder, on the post “I Can’t Speak for Men and I Shouldn’t Have to“
Joanna, I think there are two things here. The first is the response to Nikki’s piece, and the second is what our moral culpability is as members of society.
Nikki’s post at first assumes that rape culture exists, and then takes men to task for not fighting it. A lot of men don’t agree with her initial premise, so it’s something of a non-starter. I think the reason many men don’t accept the idea of a rape culture is because the idea is contrary to their personal experience. I’ll take my own personal experience as an anecdote – the most misogynist man I know, a guy who has internalized the “war of the sexes” as truth and sees women as manipulative bitches, would never rape anyone. As he said to me when I asked, “What? No, that’s just fucking wrong!” I also know (knew) two rapists. One is a highly disturbed individual (we’ll call him Jack) and is recently released from jail, living in a motel, and listed on the registry. The other (we’ll call him Gene) was a gang member, who was required to rape a girl as part of his initiation. Jack insisted she wanted it and got what was coming to her. Gene realized the wrong he had committed (he saw a difference between shooting a rival gang member and assaulting a “non-combatant”) and was remorseful until the day he died.
Researchers have done a lot to tell us who the rapists are. Most rapists are not like you and me, they are lacking in empathy and have other psychological disturbances. Gene appears to be the exception. His act was not one borne of feelings of privilege or malice towards women, but because of external pressure to be part of the gang. But neither Jack nor Gene are representative of men yet, according to the way “rape culture” is often described, we are to believe that our culture tolerates the behavior and existence of Jack and Gene. We know this is not true. Even in prison rapists are looked down upon as the lowest scum.
I think to many men the idea of a rape culture is foreign because they don’t know any rapists (or at least they don’t think they do). Again, going only from my circle of friends, none of them are friends with rapists or even know any rapists (saving one who is a public defender). To them, the idea that our culture “accepts” rape just doesn’t ring true.
Whether or not we believe “rape culture” exists, there is a secondary question of what moral obligation we have to address the incidence of rape within our culture. Setting aside the fact that men are also and increasingly victims of rape, this is actually a tricky problem that is exemplified by the classic moral dilemma of the drowning girl. If you’re not familiar with it, the problem sets out that you’re walking along and you see a drowning girl struggling for help. You can dive in and rescue her, but you’re wearing a very expensive outfit that will be ruined in doing so. Most people don’t hesitate in saying they would rescue the drowning girl and that it’s the moral thing to do. However, now assume that instead of a drowning girl, you’re asked to write a check to save the life of a girl around the world. We are assured that she will die and that our financial intervention will save her. Most people do NOT feel morally compelled to write that check.
I think this is the very mechanism at work with respect to the alleged rape culture. Men will work in their immediate lives to counter rape, both by not raping and by not tolerating rape or rape language among their friends. But to ask men to “write that check” to combat rape culture, and to fault them for not doing so, is to demand men behave in ways that moral psychologists say we as a species are ill-equipped to do.
I think what you’re saying, Joanna, is essentially what Murat is saying. He is acting morally within his personal sphere and he believes that it is our requirement to do so. What he rejects, and I don’t think you’re suggesting otherwise, is the idea that men should feel guilty if they don’t write that check. I’m inclined to agree, because as just as writing the check may be, it is a moral standard to which we don’t hold ourselves, and to demand it of others is unreasonable and unfair.
The problem with “rape culture” as theory is that it requires men to view men as rapists. Men do not view men as rapists. I know of no rapists in my family or circle of friends. The rapists that I have encountered in my life were punished severely both legally and socially. One instance was when I worked a as a fishermen in Alaska in my 20’s. A very popular crew member went to town and followed a woman home from a bar, broke into her home and raped her. Before that moment he was well thought of. After that… Read more »
Another aspect in which women often promote rape, and it seems to come very often from the feminists themselves, is that they will recount a story about being “raped” and they will say they didn’t go to the police over the matter. To me if you are saying that rape is a very serious crime and you are going around writing about how there’s a rape culture and how men ought to act to stop it, and then you tell a story where you refuse to report a rape (and hence presumably allow a rapists to continue raping people) then… Read more »
Actual rape is wrong. I have trouble feeling motivated to get all uptight about real problems with rape in consideration of how society, government, feminism, and modern women marginalize false rape allegations and do not hold women accountable for such claims. While I do want to see an actual rapist prosecuted and imprisoned I am disgusted by the laws and social rules that treat males accused of rape as guilty until proven innocent. Most likely more males are victimized by false rape allegations than females are by actual rape.
As Julie stated, just because you don’t know someone who raped a stranger or someone who was convicted of rape, does not mean that you don’t know a rapist. I would take it even further and say that the fact that you claim to know only those two rapists, is evidence in of itself of rape culture. Do you know anyone who gave a woman an extra drink to try to change her mind? How about anyone who didn’t stop at “no” and kept pushing to get to that yes? Rape culture is, in fact, everywhere. You remember that blockbuster… Read more »
Wait, what? Andi was raped?
This might be an example that might seem extreme and possibly gets some people riled up – and whether you believe that to be rape or not? Well… that alone is telling. BUT leave that argument, please, to see the underlying point: The idea that someone can manipulate someone else into sex, or avoid listening when someone says no, or coerce them to say yes, etc… that *is* rape culture, and it’s not ok. And, for the love, in reality there is no gender attached to that statement. In what I term rape culture? It’s always men manipulating women. And… Read more »
* the idea that doing these things is acceptable is, to me, “rape culture” – not the idea that they actually happen. It’s the acceptance of it as “normal” behavior.
If you are all talking about the scene in Paris where Andi and the weaslly dude have sex? I didn’t read that as rape. I read that as Andi making a questionable moral choice after making an additionally questionable moral choice going to Paris to begin with. The book makes it much harsher. She wants the dude, doesn’t know how to be bold brazen and say “Sure, jerk, let’s go be lovers.” She feints, he seduces. I saw them as playing roles. Her whole theme in the book is “I didn’t have a choice.” but she does. she makes a… Read more »
Which just underlines another issue which is that so-called “rape culture” for feminism often means manufacturing rape where it never existed in an attempt to make men look evil or something. And that leads to whether so-called date rape and other variations should even be discussed in the same way. They probably should not. You can’t have it both ways and feminists do. They wanton the one hand to describe rape in terms of it being a violent crime of extreme significance and at the other end of the spectrum they want to say it’s very common and can be… Read more »
The term “rape culture” is a feminist jargon used to extend the presumption of male guilt. They do not have to say that all men are rapists, instead claim that men support rape culture. A nice piece of feminist wordsmithery.
“Rape culture is, in fact, everywhere. You remember that blockbuster hit “The Devil Wears Prada?” Rape scene, right in the middle of it when the protagonist is in Paris. When you can observe rape in a movie rated PG-13 for “some sensuality” I believe that implies that it’s pretty embedded into our culture.” I have looked at this paragraph repeatedly – and It remands of of two things. Hysteria and Paedophilia. It seems that Rape Culture as it is being used and “Pushed” for media attention and wider usage is just what happened in the UK some years ago around… Read more »
Nikki “,,,,rape culture also says “men don’t get raped.” ” In that case it is a bad model – it’s bad socially to use it – and it’s bad intellectually and even academically to support and endorse it. Is that possibly a set of reasons what the American Government have not used the term since 1975 when it was first coined? There is a Whiff of fundamentalist going around where an idea has been made concrete and mixed up with essentialist thinking and the sum of the parts does not make sense. How Does Rape Culture explain such matters as… Read more »
We’re missing the forest for the trees. To me, “rape culture” is a term that describes how we view, discuss, and deal with rape and sexual assault, which includes the fact that we focus on rape of women by men, despite all of the other forms of sexual assault you point out. To me, it also means the fact that we shame survivors into thinking its their fault. Etc etc etc. It is also, of course, about the fact that rape is a violent act that fundamentally about control, and is used as a weapon of control in many places… Read more »
“Of culture that permits rape as a way for people to exert control and spread fear. I do expect men to be a part of that fight. ”
And one thing that seems clear to me is that human beings use a wide variety of weapons in their desire to dominate each other and sexual violence is one of those ways.
All of us should be in the fight against that. Fight itself indicates violence doesn’t it. Huh.
Shitnuts. Yes it does indicates violence… perhaps we can still think about better language, although sometimes I get very tired of talking over words and doing little else.
Nikki If you are tired of talking over words – act ! Use your web presence to seek support and ideas! tell people you want a new Product and advertising slogan – no debate – just a better and more inclusive way to get the message out there and working! Harness the experience and imagination out there – twit #rapeculture2 and ask for a better way! “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” George Bernard Shaw Stop being so… Read more »
OK. First and foremost, I agree with the end part of this comment. Second, first part is what I needed to learn. Men who read the GMP don’t believe in rape culture. Moreover, using that term gets people far more upset, and they sometimes fail to listen past it, because it is such inflammatory term. See, I didn’t realize that “rape culture” was so inflammatory – and I apologize for my naivete. I was never using it as a weapon. I thought we were on the same side of that (and I still believe we are, as we all agree… Read more »
@ Nikki B.
Would you kindly explain me in about 30 words what you mean by “rape culture.”
Thanks.
If you really want to talk about whatever it was, and not just attack men, then don’t use that term. Is that so hard? If it is just a word to you then please don’t use it.
And, I know I’ll get some shiz for this one, but simply because you, as a man, don’t experience rape culture doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist – in fact, if *women* like me are telling you it does, and it overwhelmingly affects women (by definition, not by reality, and also a problem just in that), then perhaps you should listen, instead of ranting at us that we’re wrong. And right off again you are making it men vs women. Especially given that we now know that as many men are raped as women and about as many women rape as… Read more »
You haven’t separated good men from bad men into corners.
You’ve demonized all men as rapists when merely %2 of them actually are.
Then you ask the innocent %98 to participate in their own further demonization and loss of due process in the courts.
No!
We’re done shooting ourselves in the foot for crude manipulators of the social structure.
There is no “rape culture” only RAPE HYSTERIA
Well said, Nick. The assertions of men in general accepting rape culture ring false to me, because neither I nor any men I know do. It’s like saying men perpetuate car theft culture, because just look at all the cars that get stolen every day, mostly by men. Not even playing Grand Theft Auto has made me thing that maybe stealing cars in real life would be a cool or moral thing to do. It’s a criminal thing, not a man thing. I wasn’t familiar with the drowning girl dilemma, but I like the point you made with it. When… Read more »
Hours after reading this a first time, I’m still asking myself “would I write that check?” Of course I would. Write a check save one living breathing individual person. It’s a specific action with a specific result. If you told me — write the check and we’ll help build the hospital which will save a child’s life — it gets harder. The more removed you are from the problem, the less sure you are in knowing that *your actions will make a difference*, and the harder it gets to save anyone. It reminds me of a story — early in… Read more »
Two things: Great piece and I think the Drowning Girl model is right on. There is a study somewhere, and I wish I had time to look it up but I don’t, that focuses on how much empathy anyone can have at any given time. So, the drowning girl gets our empathy because she is right in front of us. Our family and friends get empathy and usually we have enough empathy to reach out to our city arena. The farther away something/someone is the less actual empathy we have for them. So that person across the world. We don’t… Read more »
They don’t know if they know a rapist. Not a violent attacking rapist certainly, but a “oh come on, just let me in” rapist. And most men don’t know rape victims, or they don’t think they do, because most women don’t go around telling men if they’ve been attacked (especially if the men don’t know her). I’d say 75% of my female friends (and a few of my male friends) have experienced some level of sexual assault in their lives. That could be an out and out stranger rape. It could be being followed to their car after a night… Read more »
Yes I do. And am in the car so I can’t respond fully. I am not laying the blame at men’s feet nor holdin men responsible for things they didn’t do. More hopefully tonight if I can find wifi
I don’t know if I could have done it.” And I said “I would have had to also.” His eyes were far away as he replied. “But no one would have faulted you if you couldn’t do it. You’re a women.” What a burden! To always be the one who has to save someone! Its weird I know but in the minds of a lot of people its true. As a woman you would not have your womanhood questioned for not acting in a physical situation like that while on the other hand your husband would most likely be bombarded… Read more »
Another difference is that in the drowning girl story you’re the ONLY person who can help. That makes a lot of difference. Imagine if instead there were several thousand people standing about many of them not wearing expensive clothes that would get ruined, many of them nearer to you, or otherwise better placed to do something. Others further away. It suddenly becomes quite a different situation. But I do think there’s an element also of empathy again. Someone physically close is greater object of empathy than an anonymous person somewhere out there. Now I should warn you that this article… Read more »
“”It reminds me of a story — early in my marriage I was driving with my husband. Up ahead, a car had just crashed into a tree. Horrific, two teens, one dead upon impact, the other had her leg torn off. The car started smoking. We got there moments after the girls had been pulled out, just as the scream of sirens descended and those in charge took charge. And my husband, visibly shaken, said “I’m glad we didn’t get there moments earlier. I would have had to pull one of them out. I don’t know if I could have… Read more »
This is really, really impressive. As a person who loves tools, what do you think is the “tool” that is analagous to the check in the story? This is where I’ve been struggling. If you’ve been following all this conflict about rape culture, I wrote a piece called The (Quiet) Feminist Revolution here on GMP. In some ways I was proven wrong and was willing to think about the realities of teaching my children to find women “Safer”… In other ways I stand by my truth of the article. One thing I stand by is that I do NOT think… Read more »
i can see why that was comment of the day, that was a fine fine post
Have to say I do like this.
I suspect that many reading it will be uncomfortable having to consider their own “relativism” when looking at many issues, and just how that informs their thinking and words around many debates.