Gender roles are changing, but who benefits from the changes when it comes to dating?
—
We as a society are becoming more progressive, and since the start of the feminist movement in the 1960’s and 70s we have come a long way when it comes to gender roles and gender stereotypes.
We are making progress towards gender equality and we have moved away from the old beliefs such as “women belong in the kitchen” and “men are the primary house earners.” But in certain types of social situations we do have gender-based social conventions that are still widely accepted culturally. Dating for example, still has what psychologists call behavioural scripts, which are behaviours that we typically expect to happen in social situations.
Research suggests that women are pickier when it comes to potential partners in a speed dating event, with men indicating interest with half the women participating and women only indicating interest in roughly one third of them who participate.
|
Let’s try this example—imagine a man and a women in a bar or nightclub on separate sides of the room. They are both single and both catch a glimpse of each other before giving off a flirty smile. One of them decides to approach the other from across the room. In your mind, did you imagine the man walking up to the woman or the woman walking up to the man? A majority of you would have imagined the man walking up to the woman.
◊♦◊
In most cultures, the expectation of a man approaching a woman has been so ingrained that we have events or special days when those behavioural scripts are flipped. Sadie Hawkins Day is a special day, the same Sadie Hawkins Events are considered special events where women break the social conventions of dating. On these days or events women approach the guys.
Researchers have used this unique idea through the use of speed dating. Speed dating is structured in a way for daters to meet a lot of single people quickly—usually eight to 12 single men or women participate. In a typical event, women will remain seated a table whilst the men rotate in a round robin fashion from table to table every few minutes, the process repeats until everyone has met each other.
This form of speed dating event relies on the “male approach female” social convention. Research suggests that women are pickier when it comes to potential partners in a speed dating event, with men indicating interest with half the women participating and women only indicating interest in roughly one third of them who participate.
Researchers were curious to see whether this would change if they implemented the Sadie Hawkins effect on speed dating, where the men would remain seated and the women would move around from table to table.
Women are plagued with the “Paradox of Choice” or “Choice Overload” where they have so many messages and men to pick from that it makes it incredibly difficult for to pick the right guy.
|
They found the exact opposite pattern—men would become pickier whilst women would become less picky. This has been confirmed by Simply Speed Dating who also tested this research with their own speed events. What this suggests is that selective behavior may not have as much to do with gender as it has to do with social situations.
So what about the virtual world of online dating, who can afford to be pickier, men or women? In an experiment performed by Jon Millward, the answer seems to suggest it’s women. In his experiment, Jon created 10 fake okcupid profiles (five men and five women). They all had similar sounding usernames, the same answers to 25 questions, the same written profile and personal stats. The only difference between the profiles were the pictures, all with varying degrees of attractiveness.
His experiment shows that the total messages received by the five women in the group was more than 15 times the messages received by the group’s five men. This poses unique challenges to both genders when it comes to online dating.
According to data collected from Business Insider, men would need to send an average of 25 messages to receive a response whilst women would only need to send an average of five.
|
Women are plagued with the “Paradox of Choice” or “Choice Overload” where they have so many messages and men to pick from that it makes it incredibly difficult for to pick the right guy. Although men are not having to deal with this problem, they are having to compete with a larger group of men online as opposed to a smaller group of men offline. According to data collected from Business Insider, men would need to send an average of 25 messages to receive a response whilst women would only need to send an average of five.
◊♦◊
Realistically both genders have their own unique challenges when it comes to dating in general and it is difficult to say whether one has it worse than the other as the issues may not just rely on gender but also situations and circuimstances.
—
Photo: Getty Images
To the moderators
ARE YOU ALL AT SLEEP?
I see no sign that you are doing your job.
Why do you permit comments like these “….instead of wallowing in your own ignorance….”.
I can not see any point of having moderators when they permit comments of that kind.
Maybe the person that express himself this way live in a family that talk to each other this way,but please please please protect the rest of us from verbal abusive persons .
Hey, KIM
Didn’t you just state that Darren was unable to hurt you with his comments…?
Way to try and stab someone in the back.
Stay classy… 🙂
I think moderators should do their job. Period. And I do not understand why you see it as back stabbing to tell the modrators to be more critical. Yes Flyingkal to stay classy is a fine thing ,the problem is that I grew up in a family in the lower class,and I never learned how to be classy. And that also mean I can be VERY verbally abusive myself and hate it when it happens. I do not see any reason why I should close my eyes and pretend not to see how Erin are treated here. So I decided… Read more »
KIM, Being classy is about staying true to your word. It has very little if anything to do with social class… No. It’s not back-stabbing to ask the moderators to be more critical. But when you say one thing when you are talking TO or AT Darren (“You are not able to hurt us “), and say that you won’t be communicating with him anymore. But in the next instance you turn around, start talking ABOUT him instead of with him, and ask for help and support. Don’t you think that’s just a wee bit …hypocritical…? Especially after a recent… Read more »
It is OK that you ar done here.
Still I think moderators should follow the guidelines writt n here .
https://goodmenproject.com/commenting-policy/
Take care Flyingkal
Spring is coming and winter is ffianlly over !
FlyingKal – It would be nice if you told men like Darren to keep it ‘classy’ instead of singling women like KIM out who simply called Darren out for his verbal abuse. You guys certainly out number us. And rarely are most of you willing to call other men out. But you’re very eager to pile on the few number of women that are here regularly.
Hi Erin,
I’ve put up some support for you, too.
But what point does it make? I’m a bad guy so I can’t possibly have something positive to contribute.
I have spoken support and agreement with KIM on occasion too, but still been called out as promoting a view where men only see women as objects for pleasure. I didn’t know I was supposed to keep a record of your misinterpretations and flying off the bat, as usually my efforts to correct the issue has been met with a dead silence. But next time it happens I will point it out instead of clenching my teeth and trying to play nice. Then again, as we really do seem to speak different languages, I will try to refrain from communicating… Read more »
Erin The most important thing here, the way I see it is this: And now we talk about men in Western societies and not men that grow up fail states where you can do whatsoever you want to women sexually without any consequences. Let narrow this down to men in Western countries . I disagreed with a MAN here in this thread that actually demonised male sexuality . To state that sexual assault and rape happiens because that is what men do if they get release sexually is to support myths about men and their sexuality that we (I) want… Read more »
As much as I hate to jump into one of your threads again, since you are deliberately misinterpreting what I said I feel I have no choice. I did not say that every case of rape or sexual assault happens because men want sexual release. I also did not call you “stupid” at any point. If you want respect from the men on here, then don’t gaslight everything they say.
True! You did not call me stupid, you used the words ” your attempt to internet psychology.” That was not meant as friendly words , was it ? And yes, I interpreted that as your way of saying my arguments have no value. But English is not my first not my second language so maybe I do not understand the ” internet psychology “. And I am not at all worried about respect from men here on GMP. It is always a good to treat others with respect but I do choose my argument and my values to get respect… Read more »
KIM – I get what you are saying. I had a conversation with another man, somewhere else – not here, that told me that because men get so horny, that they rape, and it’s just natural. I ended up being the one defending men in that conversation. I hate to say this but you and I take a lot of heat here because of our gender. And Jules was one of the rare guys here that kept it more real and was willing to call other guys out when they weren’t being fair about things. I think the tone of… Read more »
Darren Johnson You sound angry. But lets us talk more about the sex robots. You write that sexual assualt is one way that men may choose, to have sexual release…..and that is the fact. Come on Darren Do you seriously wants us to buy that it is the insels that rape and sexually asault women and men? Because they are horny and need some release? Is that why more than 1000 men attacted women in Germany on new years eve ? They needed sex? NO DARREN , what you here claim to be facts are simply what you think and… Read more »
Well, I see we have another woman on here who is incapable of reading between the lines. Yes Kim, some men do rape women to gain access to sex. That is not the case in every rape, or even the main motivator in those when it is, but it does happen. I don’t know what the Germany case has to do with anything, I never mentioned that at all. But setting that aside, the rape thing isn’t really the point anyway. The point is there is no moral or logical argument against sex robots that doesn’t boil down to “people… Read more »
Why are you so angry ? I just don’t understand why it makes you so mad that someone simply do not agree with you in anything you say. Human beings have different opinions about all kinds of issues . Men and women, children ,and adults, Americans and none Americams . So why this anger just becaus a person see things from a different angle than you do, or has different values than you do. Why does it make you so upset? We live in democracies and that means we have the right to discuss any issue and disagree. And here… Read more »
I am not angry Kim, and quite frankly you seem to be far more upset with me than I am with you. Instead of trying to judge my emotional state through a comment section, why don’t you just stick to commenting on topic? I’m not interested in getting into a debate with you on the reasons for sexual assault, because as I said before that isn’t the point of my argument about sex bots. Nor am I interested in your attempts at internet psychology. If you don’t care about sex bots then I don’t know what the point of your… Read more »
Darren
I saw Erin conclude that she saw no reason to communicate with you.
I have come to the same conclution as Erin.
And fortunately there are lots and lots of intelligent well read men here on GMP for Erin and me to talk with :).
Of course I will 100% respect your wish !
No problem Darren
You are not able to hurt us with all your insults and open hostilty .
Good riddance.
🙂
I have a question for the men here. Have you ever created a fake female profile on OkCupid or another dating site just to see what happens? Use a picture of an normal average looking woman, not a super hot chick in other words, and create a profile that pretty much describes a female version of you. See what happens. I’m just curious what the experience will be like for you. Is it a positive experience or a negative experience? Also ladies, maybe try doing the opposite, create a fake male profile and see what happens. I haven’t done that,… Read more »
Not quite the same, but I knew a guy who used to game as a woman. The other players to my knowledge never knew how she looked (ie no profile picture so it was probably what they wanted to image if they wanted to image). He did it because the other gamers gave him stuff when they thought he was a woman.
That’s only happened to me a couple times in years of playing World of Warcraft with female characters. But I guess it never happens to male characters, so a couple times compared to zero is a lot. Actually what I’ve generally experienced is that other players assume I’m a guy even though my character is female. (As an aside, I guess I’ve been lucky because I’ve never experienced any gender based harassment while playing WoW. I was in a guild for awhile and all the players were very welcoming and positive. The worst random harassment I’ve gotten is from playing… Read more »
I’ve only dabbled as myself on a couple of dating sites. Managed to find and put up some photos of myself that wasn’t too bad, really did put some work into my presentation and what I was interested in. Received absolutely zero response. Wrote some carefully crafted messages to a couple of women that seemed to have matching profiles too. Not the standard superhot/attractive women, buut a couple who seemed down to Earth, around my age and with similar interests and outlooks on life. Zero response there as well. I don’t know what a similar experience would be for a… Read more »
I think when something is rare, we become less picky. A woman who receives 25 responses and knows she’ll receive 25 more over the next couple days and AFFORD to be picky because she has choices. A man who receives 5 responses and doesn’t know when he’ll get another will try to make it work with the 5 responses he has. I saw this play out at my high school retreat which was held at a women’s college. There is no way IMO that women in their 20s should be interested in boys in their early teens to the extent… Read more »
What do men think of women who ask them out? I am really curious about that. I guess I assume that men view women who are willing to ask a man out as too assertive, a bit scary or potentially. When I want me see me as nice and normal I could probably find a date by taking the initiative, but would the man just think I’m looking for sex? would he consider me potential “girlfriend material”? Or would he think I was a little odd or weird? I think that’s my biggest fear…. being seen as weird! or desperate… Read more »
Outstanding point to raise, Becca. As I’ve stated, I’ve been involved in, and even run relationship boards, and have been doing so since I initiated one of the first men’s boards ever, on AOL. The general consensus among dating men is that they like it, want it to occur more often. Most want the entire dating paradigm to shift. Many use the offer to help pay as a sort of litmus test as to the character of the women. Some still remain tradition and enjoy the pursuit game. The fear for the women is exactly as you state, so her… Read more »
To be honest, that depends a lot on how well I know her. I’ve accepted a few invites from women I knew. In one case, I thought she wanted to move our friendship to romance when she invited me for lunch. Our lunch conversation was the first time she mentioned a fiance. Other times, I’ve had brief romantic flings with women who’ve asked me out and once, a woman I was physically OK with, but couldn’t “date” asked me out. She caught me by surprise and before I realized what was going on had agreed to the date. TL/DR sometimes… Read more »
Just wanted to point out that getting catcalled in absolutely no way indicates whether or not a person is able to acquire a significant other. Like any form of sexual harassment, catcalling is not about “complimenting” another person, it’s a show of power that demonstrates a complete lack of regard of them as individuals.
Anyway, it could definitely be your charm and wit, but you’re probably right to keep your guard up given her unusual set of circumstances! Good luck figuring out what her motives are.
I will only say this. The only two women I’ve ever been in relationships with, and lived with for multiple years, are the women who made it abundantly clear that they were definitely interested in me, much to my shock and surprise. Of course, I’m a special case, because every woman I’ve pursued has made it abundantly clear that they “don’t think of me that way”, so take that with a grain of salt.
I could go on for a bit about my reasons for liking it, but to put it succinctly: I usually find it charming, I rarely decline the invitation even if she isn’t someone I’d have approached on my own, and I am always more interested in her than I was before. Regardless of where you land on the issue of who should be doing the asking, it’s worth keeping in mind that right now, if a woman asks a man out, she stands out. If you feel that you have trouble getting noticed, this basically lets you cut to the… Read more »
I’ve heard time and time again – from women and not from men – that men apparently think women who approach men are sluts. I’ve never heard of any man say such a thing about a woman who makes the first move. Neither have I heard any man say he feels emasculated because the date he had last night, the woman made the approach. In actuality, we like it. It makes life easier. It takes away the hard work to know that you are interested from the get go. This nonsense that men don’t like it needs to stop; I… Read more »
Hi Becca, “What do men think of women who ask them out? I am really curious about that. I guess I assume that men view women who are willing to ask a man out as too assertive, a bit scary or potentially. When I want me see me as nice and normal” Good question. First of all, I Think the “verdict” of a woman being “needy” or “too assertive” if asking a man out for a date, stems mostly from the social contract that there’s no polite or politically correct way for a man to turn down a woman for… Read more »
“When you tell us you know more about women than they do themselves then you say women are unaware of their own behavior , not in touch with their own feelings , do not know who they are, and act more on autopilot , or totally blind to the contradictions inside and in the way they live their life and talk about it.” Either that or they are knowingly doing so, which would be worse, right? Unfortunately it is the second that is true. I am saying that we, in this society, teach them that it is ok to ignore… Read more »
Do well educated women in America read romantic novel in the same number as men use porn! According to a, 60 minutes report, not as many, but stated as “epidemic”, the same language utilized to describe the use of porn and the issues related to porn. It is a multi million dollar industry, and yes, addiction is a big part of that. There were women that did not interact with other humans beyond work. There were others with thousands upon thousands of such novels, some with rooms full. One of the publishers stated, when asked about looking at the depth… Read more »
DJ Something is wrong with the way comments get posted now in this website. But back to our issue. I am horrified to hear that lots ( nearly all?) American women read what is called romatic novel regularily. And frankly I can not understand why. We do not talk abut the novels by Jane Austin and Bronte here,but a category of novels that will never win the Nobel prize in litterature . Am I right? This is not any kind of novels about womens life and her relationship to men like Madam Bovary,(Flaubert). I should not take part in this… Read more »
Romance novels are no better or worse than other light entertainment. I have a degree in literature, but I also like Stephen King. Romance novelist Nora Roberts is one of the best selling authors of all time but is is totally ignored by critics. She writes compelling stories that millions of people want to read. I liked spicy romances when I was a teenager. the stories often involved exotic locals and adventures. And the sex turned me on. I also read sci fi and fantasy novels. I joke that I would read any book with a unicorn or a dragon… Read more »
Yes, Becca. There was no judgement attempted in regard to romance novels, just that they exist, and are read.
Thank you Becca!
I have never read any the romatic novels ,apart from the Jane Austine and Bronte kind of classical novels.
Now I will ask my local library to order Nora Roberts for me.
According to Wikipedia,
“Since 1999, every one of Roberts’s novels has been a New York Times bestseller, and 124 of her novels have ranked on the Times bestseller list, including twenty-nine that debuted in the number-one spot. As of January 24, 2013, Roberts’s novels had spent a combined 948 weeks on the New York Times Bestseller List, including 148 weeks in the number-one spot. As of January 9, 2009, 400 million copies of her books are in print, including 12 million copies sold in 2005 alone. Her novels have been published in 35 countries.”
Yes, romance is big business!
No, no, kim. Sorry, did not mean to shock you. Not all women, not even most, but yes, a goodly number of women do. They stated the actual number but I can’t remember that part, but it was a a lot. Some read less trashy, but still romantic novels. We’d have to expect that when we raise our daughters on a steady diet of princesses, Disney Classics. That is what extends to the current dating format, an extension of the Disney classic. We do wrong by our women too. I speak on men’s issues, and would like to in these… Read more »
Install Adblocker Plus! The site will load much quicker
Goodmenproject … If u delete this please be aware that your aggressive and intrusive ads are the reason that people have to get adblockers. I know u need the as revenue but your site is almost unusable
Glad you brought this up also. I’ve wondered if the technical issues tend to limit participation. I wanted to suggest to them that the site is tedious to navigate. I tend to have to force my browser closed and restart, re-log quite often.
I just switched on the “ActiveX Filtering” option on my web browser (found under the “Tools” meny).
My computer is old and slow. There’s still a lot of ads popping up, but it made a considerable difference in the loading time for this site. It also considerable reduced the jumping habits of the page while trying to write something.
Just so we are clear here, Kim. We are speaking to this issue and this issue only. There are many times when I will take the male side of the isle to task. A prime example of that would be the ole, “never take dating advice from a woman”. It is usually accompanied by the argument that a woman will tell a man to be a nice guy, but then run off with the bad boy, the exact opposite. It may be all true, and I’ve said it myself, but for a very different reason…and that is where I part… Read more »
DJ
I think the interesting part of this article is where he tell a about women that become less picky when they are the ones that have to move from table to table in speed dating.
He may have a point here , and if you travel out of U.S. maybe you will find places where women actually do flirt, do initiate contact, make friends with men and are “less picky “, and lthey like men.
“According to data collected from Business Insider, men would need to send an average of 25 messages to receive a response whilst women would only need to send an average of five.” It is a lot of work to message Women online, even if these figures are correct, who has time for that? I think it is difficult for Men to talk about what they want from a Woman when they are dating because most often society brainwashes them into thinking it is selfish to do so. If you take sex out of the equation, what kind of expectations or… Read more »
Yes , something freezes the computer.
@ Erin @ KIM I think the reason a lot of guys have difficulty accepting that women’s dating issues are comparable to men’s is because women are passive daters. Women have to be beautiful to get attention from men. Men on the other hand have to be good looking. If a woman doesn’t like your profile picture, she won’t accept you (sorry can’t remember if it’s swipe right or left). A man has to be witty because she’s going to expect you to message or approach her first. A man has to be brave because he is often the one… Read more »
Women certainly are passive daters in some respects. But if a man was a passive dater, would another man conclude that dating wasn’t difficult for him just because he was more passive? Is there something inherently wrong with being passive anyway? Isn’t that just part of who people are? Some people are more passive then others. That’s just reality. Just like some people like hot sauce on their eggs or hate the taste of cilantro. If you wouldn’t assume to understand the experience of a passive or active man, then you shouldn’t assume what the experiences have been for a… Read more »
The difficulty of being a passive dater is linked to the average activity level in your “target demographic”. That is, if you actually want to have dates in the first place. As long as you don’t aspire to have any dates, it is of course not a problem or difficulty for you to be a passive dater who don’t approach anyone and aren’t approached by anyone either. Passive persons who are often approached, but doesn’t want to have dates, is another question altogether. And I’m not saying they don’t have their own set of problems. “Could you image the uproar… Read more »
FlyingKal, why should I answer your questions? You didn’t answer any of mine.
Erin,
I recon I answered at least four or five of the questions in the first part of your post.
Then again, I can’t answer for all men so I merely gave my opinion, which perhaps not count as an “answer” to you.
Regarding the latter part. After my girlfriend rapidly had lost all desire for me, actualy I would have been delighted to find a stockpile of handsome rich well-endowed men in her possession! Then at least I would’ve gotten an answer as to what turned her on, as clearly I wasn’t that anymore…
I literally feel that you and I are speaking two different languages.
Erin, Yes, it most certainly seems to be that way. I’m just lost as to why. You asked: ” Women certainly are passive daters in some respects. But if a man was a passive dater, would another man conclude that dating wasn’t difficult for him just because he was more passive?” To which I replied, basically: IF you want to date, and the group of people you prefer dating hinge mostly on the passive side, it is probably MORE difficult to get a date if you are yourself a passive person, compared to if you are active yourself. If you… Read more »
“You are posting comments too quickly. Slow down.”
I just wrote my first comment of today, how can I be posting too quickly?!?
This site has some serious software issues.
Yes it happens to me all the time also.
They need to fix it and at the same time they should also look at all sites for debate that are designed better , because here they need some dramatic change.
Hire a new and better web designer .
@ Erin “would another man conclude that dating wasn’t difficult for him just because he was more passive?” That would depend on whether he actually got dates. That would usually mean he was super hot. Heck when I was in shape women came up to me. Dating was a whole lot easier and yeah, a lot of guys with average physiques would probably think I didn’t have issues dating. I certainly had fewer issues and a higher success rate when I was proactive. “How about asking women about their experiences?” That’s what we hopefully try to do hear. One of… Read more »
“You still have it better than the guy who applied to 25 colleges and never got a letter. ”
John – Forgive me for not feeling like “i have it better’. I might as well forget my own feelings and experiences and simply accept this as my new ‘truth’ because men here are telling me it’s true.
@Erin. That is where you are missing the point, because you are seeing men through the eyes of a woman. Its not the same, but women do act in kind. We see the success object, the romantic object. We still see women marrying up rather then down in equal numbers. We see just as many women reading romance novels (male in a box) as men reading porn (women in a box). Where we get confused is in exemplifying it as women “having the male problem” rather then openly admitting their own, true “problem”, so that the preaching stops, the brow… Read more »
Do well educated women in America read romantic novel in the same number as men use porn!
Frankly , that is hard to believe since romantic novel is not seen as high quality literature .
And how is it possible that women marry up in large numbers when the trend is for men and women to marry one of the same level of attractiveness ,same level of education ,same level of intelligence ,same class economically….
Are you sure women marry up in large numbers in America today?
Sorry. This went in the wrong place. “Do well educated women in America read romantic novel in the same number as men use porn!” According to a, 60 minutes report (some years ago), not as many, but stated as “epidemic”, the same language utilized to describe the use of porn and the issues related to porn. It is a multi million dollar industry, and yes, addiction is a big part of that. There were women that did not interact with other humans beyond work. There were others with thousands upon thousands of such novels, some with rooms full. One of… Read more »
DJ
It sounds a bit similiar to watching soap operas.
Is this romatic novel thing the American culture in 2016?
Maybe you should move back to Italy…:).
I would LOVE to live in the old country. Wife and I are planning a two week trip next year. I may not come back!
…and yes, I’ll apologize to you too if I said anything of a derogatory nature while posting a flurry last night. I was in the zone!
DJ – Actually, based on PewResearchCenter, in 2012, women are marrying spouses who were less educated 3x more then in 1960. And statistically, the rates of men and women marrying less-educated partners is actually neck and neck and tipping over to the other side. In 2012, 27% newlywed women married a spouse who had less education. By contrast, 15% of newlywed men did. Among college educated newlyweds (including those with postgraduate and advanced degrees), nearly four-in-ten women (39%) married a spouse without a college degree while only 26% of men did. The amount of women marrying men who are less… Read more »
@ erin
Please don’t run to the multitude of times proven clearly defective pay gap….averaging men and women’s pay and dividing by population tells little….How many hours worked is quite different on average as is profession. People make choices in profession / hours worked that affect yearly income. There is a difference … somewhere under 5% after reality is taken into account.
And once again what does all of this have to do with how men are disadvantaged in dating?
Trey- I’m sorry but I don’t believe it has infact been proven otherwise. I provided credible statistics and information from reputable sources. Even you can’t deny that. The statistics are infact based on men and women working the same hours (It says so in the statistics), and even when men and women had earned the same degress, women still earned less and men seemed to collect bigger raises. When men make up the majority of those in the position of power (Which even you can’t disputed that they do), they most likely will have favor for other men over women.… Read more »
Erin
And one other aspect of this is a report that said one of the reasons why women earn less even with the same level of education is that they choose jobs that can be combined with taking care of their children. And those kind of jobs are not as well paid as other kind of jobs.
They are mothers,and give priority to their children.
These facts may be different in different parts of the world.
KIM – Yes, sometimes that’s true. Sometimes women take on more jobs in lower wage paying positions because of chidlren or because we simply socialize women to go into lower ‘care-giving’ fields like teaching, while we don’t really encourage them to got into tech or stem research. But these studies have factored these concerns in. Some people here act like the professional people, from accredited institutions running these studies don’t know that they need to consider the equality of hours, waves and educations in comparisons of men and women earning wages. If you check out another study from the Economic… Read more »
And this has what to do with men’s disadvantages in dating?
Trey – ask DJ – he brought it up. I simply provided the facts that said otherwise.
Erin
I once read a brilliant analyses about why men get paid more than women,
They do so because they are married: and has a family to support.
And women get paid less because they are married : that means they actually don”t need the money ,they already have a husband ..
KIM,
There are also analyses that say that men who are paid more, are more likely to get married than men who earn less.
Married men also has a health advantage over unmarried men, although different analyses draw different conclusions what is the cause and what is the result.
Perhaps sometimes we (including myself) just see brilliance where we want to see it?
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/10/25/lies-damned-lies-and-statistics-gender-pay-gap-edition/#28b0694a5a64
http://freakonomics.com/podcast/the-true-story-of-the-gender-pay-gap-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/
http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/08/gender_pay_gap_the_familiar_line_that_women_make_77_cents_to_every_man_s.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2014/04/09/president-obamas-persistent-77-cent-claim-on-the-wage-gap-gets-a-new-pinocchio-rating/
Seems personal choice along with self inflicted gender roles makes a damn big part of any pay gap.
I don’t think that I mentioned that in this discussion, but those statistics are raw data that does not delve into desire. Look up surveys, articles, essays on how women feel about such. Likewise the statistics do not delve into the why either, which is that our boys are being forced out of higher education. According to Helen Smith “Men on Strike” only 1/3 of our college enrolment are boys, and the trend has been ongoing, first noted back in 2008 when the gap was much smaller, but we’ve done nothing for our boys. That indicates necessity, not choice. In… Read more »
Yes, I was right. I just looked. It was the AAUW at it again. For accurate information look to financial institutes like Forbes, with data not taken from feminist sources but the census, or other notable, unbiased resources . As I said, when examined closely, it demonstrates yet another double standard and discrimination against men. These statistics are from 2010. I read one from 2014 that demonstrated even larger gaps among our future men and women…some of which, as is shown, demonstrate up to a 21% gap in favor of women. That does not even include small business start-ups which… Read more »
“The statistics are infact based on men and women working the same hours (It says so in the statistics), and even when men and women had earned the same degress, Does not match what you had posted “Statically, women who work full time, just like their male counterparts, are only making 78% of what men make” That is total BS…what is full time? the 35 hr female average or the 40+ hr male average? The 78% number is and apples to oranges comparison and a Defective comparison for that reason. And once again why do you bring these things up… Read more »
I think I read a study that having children is the biggest factor in the pay gap. Women without children make as much money as men in the same positions. I think there is an even bigger advantage for single women without children.
Absolutely, But that would be admitting that most of the paygap could be attributed to personal choice….. Some people will never admit that , as it removes their victim status.
And some people wish to deny that our cultural is not still paying for and practicing a history of racism and sexism so that they can deny the issues other groups of people face around inequality, therefore maintaing power over others.
Some of the most privileged people the world has ever seen, Cling to victim status to be able to say it wasn’t me….. Denying their own role in sexism and especially racism.
Couple of folks in the comments mentioned a reference to an OkCupid analysis on how women tend to underrate male attractiveness (via profile picture) more harshly than the reverse. I found the reference below: http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-looks-and-online-dating/ I believe that’s where the 80/20 mention comes from, though reading the link, it appears that though women underrate, they still tend to message those folks regardless. As OKCupid states in the article: “Paradoxically, it seems it’s women, not men, who have unrealistic standards for the “average” member of the opposite sex.” Not clear how relevant the above conclusion is given that rating and messaging… Read more »
just to be clear here. I neither supported or disparaged that “study”, but merely answered the question as to where the claim originated. I’m not interested in the study because I’m not interested in that statistic, but the societal exception, the oppression of the male self as directed by the dating format as well as how the great many women expect such as a matter of entitlement. Even here I’ve read, and continue to read not how to change, or make dating better for men, but how to further enclose themselves in the box we are claiming to be opening.… Read more »
Are we still harboring the view that even after a mutually agreed-upon one-night-stand, the woman involved has been “used for sex”?
Why?
ugh. Who here actually READ the linked study ? YES – he had access to exactly what ‘women’ experience – because the profiles were FAKE. Generated solely for the purpose of the experiment. The statistical count of the number of responses received were part and parcel the intent of the entire event. ‘Disparity’ being that “women” received more contacts and emails than the ‘men’ is exactly what that study was out to gather. And yes – it accounted for women of ‘attractiveness’ through the scale of ‘hotness’ – look at the photos – even the overweight ‘girl’ received far more… Read more »
Wow. If I were to ever go into bitter rant mode about my life, it would sound almost exactly like this. The only part that might have been different is ” I don’t care about the end game for ‘humanity’ nor ‘society’.” My alternate take would be, I’m saddened to have found myself a genetic dead-end, and not by choice. I would have loved to have had kids (my own flesh and blood I mean, not helping raise someone else’s, as rewarding as it’s been). Alas, nothing even close to that was ever in the cards for me. I know… Read more »
Scary part, Anthony? I once thought that Boris was being a bit extreme in his opinions, I’m not sure that I believe that any longer. I’m hoping the worm is not turning, but the frustration seems to be growing.
Yeah. I’m coming to some late realizations in my life, now that I’m in the late-midlife-crisis stage. Basically, it’s around knowing what I’ve always known about what a great guy I am. Friendly, outgoing, sociable, confident, funny, hyper-intelligent, extremely successful in my artistic creations, ridiculously valued in my career, even a few minor claims to wide fame. But then about realizing what I refused to believe. I drank the koolaid about what women said they wanted. That’s how I ended up being an also-ran, last pick, once all other available options were exhausted, genetic dead-end, raising a “manly-man’s” kid (awesome… Read more »
Anthony, I really like you.
I am really sorry Anthony, dating sucks and is very unfair. 🙁
“Do you know more about women than we women do ourselves ? I don’t think so DJ.” ____ Actually, I sort of do. I grew up with three sisters, a mother, about 25 female cousins, 15 aunts, married twice, raised a daughter. I’ve worked in an around women in female dominated occupations. I’ve also spent about three decades listening to women in regard to dating (men also). I’ve held deep an interesting conversations with some very great and inspiring women. I’ve done the same with some very, lets call them interesting types…and I’ve been told more times then I can… Read more »
It’s an inadequate response, but… WOW! 😀
HI DJ Since I do not live in The United States of America I can not have any opinion about most of the things you tell me here about how men behave in dating,since I have no experience. But you tell us you know more about women than women do themselves. Do you know ,or have you met women that tell they know more about men than men themselves do? Yes maybe some women sexologists and psychologist try to understand men, but I can not understand how it is possible for a woman to know more about a man than… Read more »
Kim. as men we are persistently told that we must listen to women, do what they want and when they want in order to prove ourselves a Real Man (TM). Put her on a pedestal, massage her ego, treat her like a queen. Even when we do this, in return we have to listen to diatribes about how terrible we are and what mistakes we keep making, that we are only a threat to women, that we are selfish, ignorant, rapists, misogynists and that we are all equally culpable for the things that some men do to some women. We… Read more »
FrankS Yes,I would be frustrated and angry. I do not want to be too personal here ,but my lifestyle and free choice is WGTOW A woman that do not try anymore to have a romantic relations or find a man to marry. I do not understand why it is that difficult and how it came like this. Was it easier in earlier times or is this a curse on man that we have lived with for thousands of years? Something is seriously wrong in our culture here in the Western world. It is true many of us women have a… Read more »
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/white-horses-alice-hoffman/1101075577?ean=9780425170502
Alice Hoffman is the author
“Kim. as men we are persistently told that we must listen to women, do what they want and when they want in order to prove ourselves a Real Man (TM). Put her on a pedestal, massage her ego, treat her like a queen. Even when we do this, in return we have to listen to diatribes about how terrible we are and what mistakes we keep making, that we are only a threat to women, that we are selfish, ignorant, rapists, misogynists and that we are all equally culpable for the things that some men do to some women.” What… Read more »
@Kim, You are missing the point, kim. I’m not speaking of Womens deep feelings, how sex feels to them, but their behavior…and yes, certainly a female therapist can know a man’s behavior, the reasons for such, better then he. That is their job, that is why they have a job. Within the context of female behavior, absolutely one can, I can. My experience, observation, discussion does, in fact, qualify me to speak on the issues. The dating format is exactly that type of behavior. I’m doing it right here, and it is obvious that this particular behavior exists. One does… Read more »
If there are double standards in a culture for both men and women, then what makes you so sure women are incapable to see themselves ? When you tell us you know more about women than they do themselves then you say women are unaware of their own behaviour , not in touch with their own feelings , do not know who they are, and act more on autopilot , or totally blind to the contradictions inside and in the way they live their life and talk about it. Yes, some never reflect , But the women I have related… Read more »
“If there are double standards in a culture for both men and women, then what makes you so sure women are incapable to see themselves ?” There are no double standards of note left facing American Women today. There are for men. That is one reason. The second is because its been almost 40 years and they still are maintaining and supporting the double standards against men after fighting so hard to eliminate those, which they did, for women. I can list a number of them if you like, starting with the dating format in an equal society. ————– ”But… Read more »
Still DJ, men often writes about it and discuss it here on GMP.
They protest and tell it is unfair and they do not want to take part in this kind of dating any more
This is true, Kim. I just logged on today and what do I see though? I see a big highlighted video of a man getting on his knees and begging for the hand of his girlfriend…and my head explodes as that is just as derogatory as the old marriage vows that tell a woman to “obey” her man. Sexism is a funny thing. It is very difficult to see it unless it is brought to one’s attention. When done, the first reaction is to ridicule, then dismiss and on down the line. It only changes with support and continued awareness… Read more »
DJ – You told KIM that you ‘sort of do” know women better than we know ourselves. I guess there is really no reason at all for women like KIM and I to have any kind of voice then. You got a handle on us ladies and I guess you are a better representation for us then ourselves. I just wonder how you would have felt had KIM or I told you that because of our vast experience with men (by the way,I have a large family too with slightly more male cousins and slightly less uncles then your own… Read more »
Well, I predicted the hijacking of this thread, right? I knew, going in, that there would be no acknowledgement of this double standard that favors women, but rather a long and drawn out argument that went everywhere except to the subject. I knew going in that neither of you would simply admit the obvious, but argue and redirect. I knew going in that it would be redirected back to women’s issues and that would be a basis for, or excuse for arguing in favor of marinating such a double standard. I knew that eventually it would become personal, attacking me… Read more »
Huh? How have I personally attacked you? You told KIM that you know women better then we know ourselves. Please put yourself in our shoes here. How would you have felt had I came into this discussion and told you that I know men better then they know themselves and that I get to speak for them? All I am asking is for you to think about how you would have felt had a woman told you that she knew you and could speak better for men then you could. You appear to believe that anything you could say about… Read more »
Was late. I was getting a bit frustrated with what I read across this site so I was being sarcastic and antagonizing there. I apologize for that. There were women that told me that way back at the impetus of the women’s movement, and I had the same reaction that you are having…but they were right. They were right because they were at a disadvantage and had to wade through our sexism. That forced them to learn about us, and they could predict our behavioral patterns based upon our sexism. I saw that when I had a male teacher, one… Read more »
Thank you for your sincerity. DJ, the media caters to males pretty powerfully. We still tell mostly men’s stories. In literature, in film on tv, in our history…Ask boys or girls to list great inventors of our time and they will both give you men. Its rare to find a dynamic, complex female character on tv or film. Infact, women are more often sexualized in media, are younger than their male counterparts and are shown much less in positions of powers or even having goals outside being pleasing sexually to the viewer or to the men in the story. All… Read more »
“Steve, I’d like to know where you got this ‘80% of available women chase 20% of the available men’. ” Ok Trends, Research done by Okcupid in regard to dating profiles. http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-looks-and-online-dating/ Again, we are talking about dating, not reproduction. “Well this is a happy future we’ve created for ourselves isn’t it.” Well, if we are to look at the potential for happiness in dating and marriage for men, when considering the objectification of men in dating, the assignment of chattel in marriage (even their very right to decide if they want to be a parent governed by the female),… Read more »
The full text of the ‘experiment’ confirms what I found. EVERYBODY lies, some are just more creative about it and successful with it, and of course – attractiveness will let you get away with those lies at a greater proclivity. He does say that men lie about height and women lie about weight / shape; but it would be interesting to see what height he created for Mr Handsome – or if he kept it consistent throughout both countries and cities.
I don’t know. I’m not so sure that it’s really easy for anyone. Everyone has advantages and disadvantages. Between my divorce and meeting my girlfriend, I had many more options and many more dates than I realistically believed I would get. I met some truly amazing, beautiful women. We men need to be clearer about what we want but be flexible within those boundaries. Half the issue though is that there are many women (and some on here) who feel they own male sexuality, as though each dating decision any man makes is subject to approval of women, and they… Read more »
Men and women both have their unique challenges. Though I do find that this article falsely represents what the average woman’s experience is with dating. Many of us, don’t have a never-ending stream of options. Neither do I think women are ‘picker’. Today’s average male is picky himself. They project their own fantasies, desires and wishes on onto you just like a woman may do. Absolving men of that isn’t fair. And some of the supposed ‘options’ women may have simply want to sleep with you and then never see you again. So I don’t think it’s fair to count… Read more »
Erin, exactly.
And why don’t men understand these facts ?
Because you group us all together as men lacking understanding. 😉
Nolan – As someone who does not always perfectly qualify her own statements, as someone who sometimes just says ‘women’, ‘men’, ‘children’ and so forth…perhaps you could look past the imperfection of not perfectly qualifying statements to your own exacting standards and see the message both KIM and I were attempting to deliver? While I understand that it doesn’t feel good to be lumped into a generality, not all generalities that other make are made with nefarious intentions either.
“Erin, exactly. And why don’t men understand these facts ?” Because they are not facts, andyou are not discussing, but distracting from the topic, which, again, are the difficulties that men face in dating, once again turning it to a discussion about male faults and female victimization, by her stating that she will “not absolve men or responsibility”, when doing just the opposite, right here, right now, in regard to women by making that very, out of context, off topic statement. You are actually demonstrating the point of the article by attempting to dominate and turn the discussion, once again,… Read more »
DJ “Because they are not facts”. Do you know more about women than we women do ourselves ? I don’t think so DJ. Many of your comments here are interesting but you should stop trying to silence Erin. Again and again you tell her in different ways that she disturbs the conversation, etc. This forum has moderates DJ, and you should stop . Erin has the same right to voice her opinion as you. You work hard to make her withdraw from the conversation, by trying to DOMINATING her. Guess what. It does not work DJ, so please do not… Read more »
KIM – Thank you so much for that. From the bottom of my heart. DJ – I commented from my own perspective as a woman. That’s all I can really offer since I’m not a man. I disagreed with what the author said was the average woman’s dating experience. Doesn’t it make more sense to have a truthful understanding of the average women’s dating experience is vs listening to a man say what he thinks women dating experiences are and projecting theories and ideas based on a somewhat inaccurate representation of how women experience dating? It was infact part of… Read more »
Erin, This is getting personal so let me just say that you are nothing compared to what I’ve experienced. I’ve been called everything from a misogynist to a pussy, told I should be raped and asked to die depending on which side of the gender divide that I came down on. I’m the nickel rich guy on all of that, but you’ve made no donation to the fund. There is nothing personal here. You are not a mustache twirler. You are expressing what you honestly believe. I respect that, and I actually agree with much of what you write about.… Read more »
DJ – Arguments may get heated here, but I try to treat people with respect. I may not always treat them in the way they need to be respected but I don’t actively look to disrespect others. I have also been called horrible things online too, even here at GMP. I’ve also been told I hate the opposite gender, that I’m ignorant, selfish, a hypocrite and worse. When I’ve tried to have serious discussion with men, I’ve been told to post picture of my ‘tits’. In another thread, you told me I deserved what I got. That I brought it… Read more »
Hello pot, let me introduce you to the kettle…
FrankS
Sorry.
I do not understand.
This is too advanced for me and I lack knowledge in English to understand what you say here.
There is a figure of speech in English about “the pot calling the kettle black”. It is used to describe when a person is guilty of the exactly what they’re accusing someone else of. A pot sitting on a stove will usually turn a lot blacker from soot than a kettle will, so that’s where the idea comes from.
In informal usage between native English speakers where this idiom is well known, it might be shortened like “Pot, meet kettle!”, or in more interesting ways like FrankS did above.
More here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_pot_calling_the_kettle_black
Now, back to our regularly scheduled argument. 😉
Thank you Anthony :).
For the record, I didn’t mean to sound condescending or anything in explaining that figure of speech. I just know, from being born an English-speaker, living in two other places where nobody at all spoke a word of english, and having to learn two other languages FAST! what it can be like trying to have an important discussion, and getting discouraged by a language barrier. KIM, you are doing an excellent job, and it’s obvious, because FrankS replied to you with a comment that assumes you have a firm grasp of English, so you fooled all of us! 😀 😀
One quibble: “Do you know more about women than we women do ourselves ? I don’t think so DJ.” This makes no sense whatsoever, since the “facts” that DJ is refuting are about men and what they want, eg. ” Today’s average male is picky himself. They project their own fantasies, desires and wishes on onto you just like a woman may do.” That’s a sweeping generalization about men, and what they think. True or not, it pre-supposes that the woman who said this “knows more about men than we men do ourselves”. So that’s a complete 180 from what… Read more »
Hi Anthony,
And for the record, I want to point out or reiterate that Erin DID present her post as her thoughts and opinions.
It was KIM who represented these same opinions as facts.
No.
Now you are a bit unfair Nolan.
But you see what has happened here though right? There’s a certain “preaching to the converted” aspect to saying things like that here. I have a feeling that any guy who is contributing to these comments is probably a little more enlightened (or at least trying to learn) than the men being described in the comment above. Nolan just had the same reaction, in text, that I always have when I hear a generalization about men get applied to me. Reading intent in text is hard. I suspect that if we were all sitting around over drinks having this conversation,… Read more »
Yes, I get why Nolan responded the way he did. Which is why I tried to appeal to focusing less on looking for the perfect message and all of us working harder at looking for the best in each other first. I do not always create perfect posts. I don’t always qualify statements. That doesn’t mean I’m trying to make anyone, men or otherwise, feel bad. It is certainly hard when you hear a generalization about your gender. Especially when it’s something that you don’t believe is true. It seems that generalizations are okay to make as long as their… Read more »
Yes, I got you. And I can read between the lines of what you say (see why in my response to one of your comments below), and focus on your intent. Please don’t be discouraged by how people react to any “text misstep” you might make here. I get a sense you don’t, but I want to make it clear, your voice is needed here. I think even DJ isn’t against you. He’s just calling you out on how certain things you say might be interpreted. Even that is instructive and adds to the discussion. Again, even though I’ve only… Read more »
Anthony – I am discouraged. Perhaps many of you simply don’t want to know anything about women’s thoughts and feelings. So perhaps my time here is up. Perhaps what you guys want is simply a place that’s inclusive to men only where you don’t have to see anyone else’s experiences or thoughts outside of your own ones as men. People act like I’m the only one here that isn’t perfect and that everything is my fault, failing to take personal responsibility or admit that they might not be delivering their own message any better. I am not the only person… Read more »
I know, and I hope that wasn’t directed at me, because I want you here, and I find value in what you have to say. I know I’m not the best at explaining my own opinions, sometimes people get the wrong impression by something I’ve worded badly, and sometimes I misunderstand what others are saying. We’re trying. I know I’ve had certain aspects of my thinking altered by what you and other people here have to say, and I often feel like calling it “positive enlightenment”.
” Anthony – I am discouraged. Perhaps many of you simply don’t want to know anything about women’s thoughts and feelings. ” You are once again missing the point. That is ALL we hear in this society is what women think and feel, what we must do to help them, what is wrong with us, how to fix us. Not a one of us have not heard about women’s issues hundreds upon hundreds of times, everything from work to paying 45 cents more to have their ruffled shirts cleaned and pressed. We’ve heard, we read here, women’s issues with dating.… Read more »
I’m laughing here. I’m not against Erin or anyone. I’m just getting older and crotchety, and growing tired of the same old arguments that we’ve been having in regard to these subjects for going on 25 years now…and still at square one regarding men’s issues, men’s rights…Still arguing whether they exists rather then seeking long overdue solutions; still hearing about rape culture, male privilege and other nonsense that does not even exist while ignoring plain and obvious issues that do. This board looked promising at first, but even on this board I’m seeing a strong lean left, a strong lean… Read more »
DJ I think The Editors here on GMP will be happy to find new people that contribute and write articles. When I read what you say here it sounds like you think the Editors mainly wants to publish stuff that supports women. I think the problem is that nobody gets paid anything here for their articles. So here you find those that are willing to write for free. Sometimes it is terapist that look for clients . Do the Editors say no to articles written about mens issues in America? Maybe you can contribute and help them find more and… Read more »
Yeah, I dunno, Kim. I’m not sure that I’m the type of angel they are looking for. I think that I may seem an enigma to them, or perhaps a bad influence. I often wonder if they hold their breath when they review my posts, thinking, “what the hell is he going to say now”. Not sure they are ready for a guy like me, not sure the world is yet. Remember, these people have colleges, peers that do expect a certain point of view and I’m not sure this is the time or place for radical thought. Perhaps in… Read more »
As an FYI, Kim. I’ve been there before. I was actually very active in the 80s and 90s. I was quoted in a number of magazines and news papers, but that was a different world, with no great men’s writers as there are today.
I’m proud that I was there on the ground floor helping to break the wall, but dyslexic bull in a china shop may not be what we need today!
“Although I do think men could benefit from looking deeper within themselves to see what they really need in a partner vs the more shallow aspects I tend to see men focus on.”
Whats the point, if thats all you’re going to see?
Steve, are you saying that men don’t tend to focus on women’s outward appearance heavily when choosing a potential partner? I said what I said because I think it’s something that potentially has the ability to benefit men more greatly and their relationships. Spending more time examining who a man is and who he wants to be and what he is looking for in a partner benefits men themselves. Some men are willing to compromise and sacrifice a lot for a pretty face and hot body. Or they simply overlook her more negative qualities because she’s really pretty and her… Read more »
It’s funny you say that, because I compromised, very much like you described. But then again, very much not. Time for a personal experience rant, that I know is shared with so many of my male friends: I “settled” for a woman who is objectively “not hot”. The only women I’ve been with are not the ones who ever made me unable to breathe when I looked at them, although I thought they were attractive enough to maybe even be “out of my league”. In fact, they’ve had insecurities that mean I’ve never had sex with the lights on, despite… Read more »
@ Erin 2 things. First, men are drawn to looks in women that they know nothing else about. Part of the issue is that people are too caught up in “not harassing” people. In the past, I could be interested in a co-worker or classmate. I could ask her out and if she refused drop it and no harm no foul. Now people view that as sexual harassment so a lot of guys don’t bother asking women out who they “know”. The other thing is that it costs a lot in time, emotionally, and sometimes financially to find another girlfriend.… Read more »
“Although I do think men could benefit from looking deeper within themselves to see what they really need in a partner vs the more shallow aspects I tend to see men focus on.” Rather then turn this back on men, perhaps a great many women should be doing so before articulating what amounts to stereotyping, blaming, and bashing men that attempt to discuss their issues in an open an honest way. Is not twisting it back at men so as to impose more guilt , shame, infer dysfunction as a means of silencing rather then openly and honestly discussing more… Read more »
DJ – My Aunt gave me a book called “Keeping The Love You Find” by Harville Hendrix PHD. This is a book for people who aren’t in relationships and doing the work to get to know themselves better, their thought processes and how they perceive others so they can better recognize who they are and pick healthy potential mates. I’m currently working through it, doing the exercises the author says will help you get the most from the book. I’m giving the advice that I was given. I am giving pragmatic, tangible advice that puts the power in the individual… Read more »
“And some of the supposed ‘options’ women may have simply want to sleep with you and then never see you again. So I don’t think it’s fair to count the men that are simply looking for sex because 99% of women don’t want to be used for sex. ” Plenty of women engage in casual sex, so yes it is fair to count those as options. Hookup culture is a thing now. Those men aren’t using you for sex, they’re wanting mutual casual sex. I am a man who is looking for casual sex, and at no point does that… Read more »
Gospel truth. Well said, sir!
@ Chris Ok, lets not get silly here. We are discussing dating, not murder, not assault, not abuse, and certainly not the pathological actions of a few criminals. This type of hysterical, feminist shaming as an attempt to shut down the conversation by, once again, painting the men as perpetrators does not apply here. The guilt does not take here, and the shouting is not heard. It is akin to a woman speaking about a marriage issues and some random guy on the internet ranting about the recent, and latest, penis amputation by a jealous wife. We could branch off… Read more »
Are men at a disadvantage in modern dating? No. No, they aren’t. Because they probably won’t wind up dead if they try.
http://whenwomenrefuse.tumblr.com/
No, they just have their penises cut off and get to see women laughing about it on television. What a way to blanket label an entire gender. Idiot.
@ Chris
How does reducing the number of available women advantage men in dating? I remember seeing stories of women being murdered accompanied with pictures. I always felt weird when a guy would make a comment like it was a bigger crime because the woman was hot and now a bunch of guys will be deprived of the opportunity to date her. I put your statement in pretty much the same category.
Men are and that’s why so many try to limit options for men like porn and prostitution. When people talk about sex bots, look at who’s objecting and why. It’s usually the feminist wing of the progressives and the reason is usually a blanket declaration that it “hurts women”. Research on the other hand seems to indicate that it would result in less harassment and sexual assault.
I think any woman, feminist or other, aren’t too keen on so throughly objectifying the female gender by making robots that specifically exist to satisfy a man’s every whim. Not to mention what kind of consequences that would have on men’s own pyschological well being. Because there will be social and other reprocushions that wouldn’t be positive from such an event. On top of that, men who choose to have sex with sex bots however would eventually see their DNA die off. So maybe simply by natural selection, the men who were not looking to procreate would simply eventually die… Read more »
“On top of that, men who choose to have sex with sex bots however would eventually see their DNA die off. So maybe simply by natural selection, the men who were not looking to procreate would simply eventually die off and women would be left with men that did value them vs men who clearly didn’t” Or those that you chose not to procreate with would die off anyway and you’d be left with the same situation that happens in online dating now. 80% of the available women chasing 20% of the available men….. then both sides end up dying… Read more »
“On top of that, men who choose to have sex with sex bots however would eventually see their DNA die off. So maybe simply by natural selection, the men who were not looking to procreate would simply eventually die off and women would be left with men that did value them vs men who clearly didn’t” But in our overpopulated world, Sex bots would be a good thing….might even bring population down to the planet’s carrying capacity. Would Bring a balancing of the sexes into reality……and finally people only getting into relationships based on love and true compatibility . And… Read more »
Steve, I’d like to know where you got this ‘80% of available women chase 20% of the available men’. Because based on the Center for Disease Control And Prevention – There are just about as many male virgins as there are female. Men are having sex (infact having sex more with more partners), more then women are. These are not statistics that agree with your own percentages. Where is your source? I suspect that sex bots would only accomplish making people more individually selfish and concerned with themselves even more, would probably cause even greater rifts between people and their… Read more »
If you remove the chaff (men and women just looking to relieve sexual tension) and were left with the remaining wheat ( person’s mature and looking for emotional connection ) it would be better.
If a man is happy with a just sexbot, he’s probably not the ideal date/mate.
As to the 80/20 thing …. Studies of attractiveness find that men see about 50% of women as average or better looking, basicly statistically accurate. Women in the same studies found only 20% of the men average or better looking…..a rather skewed viewpoint statistically.
Try1963
We still would like to inspect studies like that.
I fear this is a myth spread on websites like MGTOW , etc.
And in fact myths like that harms men more than women .
But it is also stupid to think we choose partners and fall in love with persons on a photo and not with a person we see face to face , that we can watch move,smell,hear his voice,see the expression in his eyes……
Kim? What is with the royal We? Who is this nebulous “We”
We.
We are all the human being in real life.
Not all studies done are good valid, reliable studies.
I do not think we can understand attraction men and women feel by asked them to look at photos.
I’m in perfect agreement with KIM here. Couldn’t have said it better myself. I too have wondered how many of these ‘statistics’ are falsely represented on MGTOW sites. Which is why the actual source of these statistics, the actual studies, would be helpful to see. KIM – I also totally agree with you that this kind of information is doing more harm to men then women. I will just say that as far as how my attraction works? I have been completely turned on by men that would not be considered stereotypically ‘hot’ by conventional standards. And I have been… Read more »
That last paragraph. That’s how everyone should be. That’s how I’ve always been about women. I think I said it before recently about how I’ll read everything you write carefully, and now I think I understand why a little better.
Thank you for saying this…it tells everyone a lot about you, and should be a reason for them to pause before reading intent into your posts that suggests you are anything other than this.
Are men having more sex with more partners than women have?
Then with whom are they having sex?
That old canard …… Another variant of women = good/pure, Men =evil/corrupt.
Never did or will stand up to logic……aiming for a limbic response and resonance in the reader to shut down logic and Win the argument with emotion
I don’t know FlyingKal – it’s simply what the statistics say. I was not in anyway implying that women were good and pure and men were evil/corrupt. I was simply disproving the belief that 80% of women want the same 20% of men. Infact, in my own social group of friends, we are all very attracted to different things. Thank goodness for that.
Erin,
I don’t think you can disprove one set of statistics or belief, with a second set of statistics that is just tangibly related.
Especially if the second set is also logically impossible.
So one statistic is true – the one from OKCupid about 80%/20% and the other one, the one that comes from the Centers of Disease and Control Prevention is impossilbe? Does that sound like that makes sense to you FlyingKal? The statistic I gave is not impossible. It comes from a credible source too. We just haven’t figured out exactly how it sits yet. I will say that if you look at that okcupid survey, even though men rated women attractive on a broader scale, most men stuck to emailing the top hottest women and even ‘cute girls’ got significantlly… Read more »
*sigh*.
No Erin, I didn’t say one of them was true and the other wasn’t .
If you got that impression, you may want to read my post again.
FWIW, the 80/20 statistics originally comes from a survey of user statistics and ratings on some dating site, and not from an MGTOW source.
@ Erin I think what Steve meant was if men removed themselves from the dating pool in large numbers, women would be in the same situation men are in now. They’d need to be proactive in dating and we’d have the reverse situation with men being picky. My gut tells me that anything that divides the sexes is probably unhealthy for society and the individuals. The pragmatist in me wants to put most in front of individuals since some people probably would benefit from sex bots. The libertarian in me says that people have the right to do unhealthy things… Read more »
I get that John – But I’m not convinced women would respond exactly the same way to certain situations for the long run. Would women become more proactive? Would they turn to other women instead? Would they simply find other ways to have the things they want without men? No one can say. And hey, I certainly agree that people have a ‘right’ to do unhealthy things. But no society lasts forever. Certain things could be our downfall. And moving toward increased self-fulling pleasure sounds like something that certainly would aide in that. I do not even think giving men… Read more »
“by-passing regular earning men for super achieving robot men that will open doors for them, and do all the things men today have issues and concerns with” How did we mix sexbots with AI’s…… If there are super achieving robot men created, they won’t want human women. Sexbots are the very near future…..Advanced AI’s are decades away. Women who want a man as a partner will just have to up their game or choose other women or toys … I’m fine with that But it is interesting that providing resources is so high on your list of what men or… Read more »
“If there are super achieving robot men created, they won’t want human women. ” Of course they will. They will be programmed for it. Just like sex bots will be programmed for their ‘purpose’ too. Why would you care anyway? Men will have their sex bots and women can have high achieving male bots? What’s wrong with that? Equality in human awfulness all around. And of course I compared men’s sex bots to high achieving male robots. If men are going to push the limits to further exploit femininity and the creation of femininity, why shouldn’t women do the same?… Read more »
You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what sex bots are, Erin. They’re not borderline-sapient artificial intelligences like what you described, they’re exactly what the name implies: machines that you can have sex with. They don’t think, they don’t express love, they just allow you to achieve orgasm. Not to mention that the technology needed for one of your high achieving make bots won’t be available for a long time, so if women really do choose to go that way in response to men choosing sex bots they’re going to have to wait a while for it.
Darren – Where have I displayed a ‘misunderstanding of what sex bots are for’? They are for having access to sex with as much ease and of little consequences as possible. They are a means to live out an individual’s every whim and fantasy without being asked to think of anyone else outside of themselves. They are a means to sculpt an ideal fantasy person to have sex with that won’t be prone to human vulnerabilities that people don’t like dealing with in their fellow human beings. Does this sound like this will foster a healthy cultural? A healthy relationship… Read more »
“They are meant to sculpt an ideal fantasy person that won’t be prone to human vulnerabilities” No. They. Aren’t. This is why I said you don’t understand what sex bots are. They are not meant to replace people or human relationships, only the act of having sex. They are no more a means to live out a person’s “every whim and fantasy” than vibrators or electric dildos are today. I don’t see you on here launching ridiculous screeds against those items. There is far more to human interaction than having sex, and I don’t know why you seem to be… Read more »
Oh come on now. Of course sex bots are meant to replace humans on some level. Of course they are. Yes, sex bots are *exactly* about sculpting an ideal fantasy person that won’t be prone to human vulnerabilities. That’s why the sex bots would be created in the first place. A sex bot makes no demands. It exists to completely please the user. The user will never be challenged to think outside of themselves. People would have access to easy sex without having to deal with their fellow human being and so they won’t have to think about anyone else… Read more »
Your insistence that you know what sex bots are when you clearly do not is really making you look ignorant. Google sex bot 2016 and look at the images you find- you’ll see that they are basically a robotic part meant to replicate a vagina stuffed into a sex doll. Hardly a replacement for humans, unless you think that sex is all humans bring to the table. A machine like the android from Ex Machina that could truly come off as a replacement for another human won’t be available for decades. I don’t know where you get off acting like… Read more »
Darren – Actually, you labeling me ‘ignorant’ is more of a reflection on *you* then it is of my own intelligence. I have not had to take shots at your intelligence to make my own point. You however have decided to take a cheap and untrue shot at my intelligence to make yours. Do I think it’s better when human beings have relationships with other human beings? Of course. Do I think that things like porn, sex dolls and sex bots will have negative impacts on how people choose to interact with each other? Yeap. That’s right. I do. They… Read more »
The reason I called you ignorant is becasue you contune to insist that sex bots are meant to respond and act like human beings, when in reality they are merely meant to replicate the action of having sex. As I have explained seemingly a thousand times now, sex is not the only thing that human beings are capible of. As for my proof, if you had researched the sex bots that are currently being developed like I suggested, you would see that you are wrong about what they are and what they are meant to do. Your second point is… Read more »
Darren- Read the Fear of irrelevance in her posts. The fear that the jig may be up and the privileges she clings to are next to go…..Sexbots threaten the insecure the same as Modern vibrators cause insecurity in some men…..One of the roles that defines me is being devalued forever.
Trey- I see your point but personally I think this is less about a fear of being irrelevant and more that Erin is just either incapable of or unwilling to understand what sex bots are. I mean, her black slave robot comment clearly shows she doesn’t understand robotics. As if anyone would make a machine based off the incredibly inefficient form of the human body for mass agricultural production, much less bother to make it appear “black.”
Darren – I may be many things, but ‘ignorant’ is not one of them. You have provided no scientific data that would back up your own conclusions. They are simply your own opinions mixed with bits and pieces you’ve read about the subject – like the rest of us. No one in this discussion specified how they were defining ‘robots’ or how far into the future we were talking about and yet you have exclusively act like everything is predicated on the terms you’ve decided on. You think that fully formed looking human robots aren’t possible? They could be. Who… Read more »
Actually, the original topic of discussion was modern sex bots- that is, machines designed to replicate sex and sex only. You were the one who dragged the discussion into more advanced robots, which is why I told you that you that those were not what sex bots are and that you had no idea what you were talking about. It is also why Trey called you out for changing the discussion from sex bots to advanced AI’s because that is not in fact what was originally being discussed. Yes, robots that can replicate human beings are possible (and I acknowledged… Read more »
Erin we all swim in a sea of varying degrees of privilege in the western world. We’ve as a cultural spent years unpacking and examining and to a large degree eliminating most male privilege….all while writing excuses for not doing the same across the board. Total equality sounds good …… just no more excuses….. or hold backs …because she’s a mom…..because women were oppressed back when….. because…because…. That is a method of holding onto traditional Female privilege……just let it all go
You know what Darren – I went back and read the entire conversation around robots and actually, the original discussion, which was started by John Anderson, merely speculated about ‘sex bots’. He never defined them as ‘modern’ or what was ‘currently’ available or in any other terms that would allow for *you* to say with any true factual information that the conversation was anything other then what it was. You are the only person here attempting to define the terms in a way no one else did. In response to his comment, I merely said that women don’t like to… Read more »
I just reviewed the comment stream, and you’re right- John Anderson did not use the word modern. My bad. But nevertheless, the definition of a sex bot is a machine that is designed for sex, not to completely replicate a human being. The kind of machine you’re describing would not be a sex bot, it would be a android with a highly advanced artificial intelligence system. And like I said before, such a machine is so far away that speculating on what kind of horrible effects it would have on human relationships is merely fear mongering. But for the sake… Read more »
Erin, I said we all are privileged in varying degrees….That men’s sex assigned privileges have spent years being unpacked, examined and in many cases dismantled and eliminated….I’m sure there is still work to be done there. However, That it is time that women privileges come under the exact same scrutiny …unpacking….examining…..dismantling…. and finally eliminating. An article on men’s disadvantages in dating that is part of that unpacking and examining……. Sadly it gets derailed …. please examine why? Might the fact that certain privileges are being questioned, make those that receive them rather defensive? Causing all sorts of attempts to derail… Read more »
Trey – It’s obvious we have vastly different perspectives about what exactly is happening in the world today. I don’t personally live in a world where men’s privilege has been “dismantled and “eliminated”. You apparently do. While how women were treated in the past may not matter to you, it’s extremely revealant to the issues women face, how they experience the world and how the world tends to see women even today. And not in a ‘women just want to *pretend* they are victims” mocking kind of way. On top of that, the issues women face are not just because… Read more »
Darren – There is no “nevertheless’ that can exist here. You’re entire response was based on telling me I didn’t understand when it was *you* who didn’t understand. Now you’re trying to act like it’s no big deal. You forced your own interpretation on everyone else and made me your exclusive target in the process. You threw the word ‘ignorant’ around when it was you who didn’t understand the basis of the discussion, ironically enough. What’s even more hilarious is that all you could do is tell me I’m ‘ignorant’ and now you are agreeing with my comments. Of course… Read more »
Erin …. What privilege can I access that you can’t access also? “I did not ‘attempt’ to ‘derail’ anything. The author make a specific comment about women’s experiences and I believe they were falsely represented” But you also denied Men’s experiences as inaccurate or trivial compared to your own. Men have shed most of their gender based privileges over the last 40 years……There are no legal privileges left for men over women and the remaining social based ones are fading pretty quickly. But, there are a number of privileges that woman such as yourself seem to rue letting go of……… Read more »
I apologized for my use of the word modern, not for my argument that you were misidentifying what sex bots are. My entire point was that you didn’t know what a sex bot was based on your first post. You said it was meant to replace a human being. For the hundredth time, that’s not what it is, that’s what in your astounding ignorance you think it is. What it is meant to do is replace one aspect of interactions between human beings- having sex. Men who use sex bots will not seek them out because they want sex, not… Read more »
” super achieving robot men that will open doors for them, and do all the things men today have issues and concerns with.” I burst out laughing at this. Why? Because it happens to me all the time…three times so far today in fact, that the act of holding a door open for a woman, or offering to help them with anything, is met with a whole host of blistering responses. I try to help everyone. I’ll hold a door for a perfectly capable guy too, if the timing of it just makes sense. But so many women I encounter… Read more »
Glad I could give you a laugh. 🙂 Anthony – you got to live your life being who you want to be. I can’t tell you how many times i’ve done nice things for both men and women and they were ignored or other people acted like it was their god-given right I simply serve them. But i still act in the way that best represents who I want to be. I will say that I don’t think it’s okay for women to be hostile to you but I do think that women are probably over-loaded in our society with… Read more »
Actually, the sad truth is that I understand why I get the latter reaction. I get it. I’m not “ugly”, and I’m not deformed, but I’m a tiny, somewhat scrawny looking, hyper-geek who looks like he doesn’t “get any”, and for decades that was true.
Maybe I should get a t-shirt that says “I’m fine. I have sex a few times a week. How are you doing?”
@ Erin
“But hey, maybe we can have male robots too that women can send out to make tons of money for them, ”
People have actually talked about that in a round about way, but it usually what will we do when robots take our jobs. Well one idea was to guaranty people a basic income. Didn’t they actually create a robot that could vacuum?
“But hey, maybe we can have male robots too that women can send out to make tons of money for them, ”
We already have those.
It’s just that they aren’t “male” robots per definition, and they are not commanded by women to go out and make tons of money (for them).
Instead, as John hints at, they are mostly owned and operated in the industry by men, generating tons of money for them. Who in turn qualifies as the top 20% that women are actually interested in…
Actually I am curious about what kind of robots women would like to have if we could design them. I would like to do all house work most of the shopping, be brave and strong to protect the house like a huge dangerous dog , very intelligent to answer questions of all kinds, help me to solve legal problems like with the tax collector, play with my pets when they are alone at home, paint and decorate the home often , be silent and clean like a cat, feed me breakfast in bed ,and be caring and warm when I… Read more »
Kim I agree with you, But those options being open for others takes nothing away from me. When I was young and into casual sex….it was fun….but empty. So empty that I changed tacks, FWB was the minimum I was interested in …. If we couldn’t talk, laugh, cuddle and enjoy non-sexual companionship at minimum….Why…..would I want sex with them. Still close friends with a few former FWB’s…
I kind of like the sapiosexual term…..If we can’t talk and share….why would I want to have sex with you?
Swedish TV made a series called “Äkta människor” (“Real people”) that explored the subject of human-like domestic robots and AI.
I also think there was an English spin-off called “Humans”
https://dp8hsntg6do36.cloudfront.net/56cfaa75ff2afb0327000013/cfdec1da-9792-4724-a518-5cedeb9503a6low.mp4
Sorry! Wrong URL in previous post.
https://dp8hsntg6do36.cloudfront.net/558b295061646d4fb81c0000/e7550cf9-4ed7-4c6c-97db-f63f9e2fcec7low.mp4
“Is there anyone on here that has been at odds with you on that regard?” Yes, there seem to be a few men here specifically that are completely comfortable with using technology to exploit women and/or the imagery of women. “Pointing out the existence of a movement or a phenomenon isn’t the same as supporting the same phenomenon.” I think you should go back and read the comments made. Some here do support it and are not simply talking about the possibility of it. They actively support options that exploit the imagery of women for male pleasure. “But around here,… Read more »
And KIM, I agree with you.
I’m convinced that in a similar situation, the vast, vast majority of men would also like a robot to perform any tedious or somewhat dangerous labour, and leave the hugging, cuddling, and love-making to a real, breathing, consentual, human being.
This has been a funny and interesting discussion. I still hold fast to the fact that men and women do not want to be exploited either at a human level or through technology that represents the gender they identify with. People will fall pray to the same issues they fall pray to now in our society. There will be addiction, jealously, selfishness, a growing movement to even less direct human contact, hyper-sexuality, hyper push back from conservatives around hyper-sexuality, an inability to relate to or even care to develop the skills that require you to interact successfully with other people…there… Read more »
Living today is like living in one of the science fiction novels I read as a child. We all walk around with a tiny computer in our pocket, we are all connected by our cells phones. And outside the borders of our countries , the refugees and migrants that wants to get in but are not permitted to enter . Robots for sex will not make our life easier . For a few it will be better than nothing . The more sex you have the more you tend to want . It is like our hormones gets stimulated to… Read more »
Erin, “I still hold fast to the fact that men and women do not want to be exploited either at a human level or through technology that represents the gender they identify with.” Is there anyone on here that has been at odds with you on that regard? Pointing out the existence of a movement or a phenomenon isn’t the same as supporting the same phenomenon. But around here, pointing at a phenomenon that is or could be in any way interpreted to be a disadvantage for women, seems to be a sure-fire way for you to launch an attack… Read more »
“The more sex you have the more you tend to want . It is like our hormones gets stimulated to crave more and more”
Really? Even I with a high libido hit the wall and refuse more at a point. Men are not sex machines and have many more interests than just sex. Some that haven’t had it in a long time may act like a starving man for a while….but that is gotten over pretty quickly. Funny that one of the large complaints about porn is how hard it is to get some guys interested these days.
“I think any woman, feminist or other, aren’t too keen on so throughly objectifying the female gender by making robots that specifically exist to satisfy a man’s every whim. Not to mention what kind of consequences that would have on men’s own pyschological well being. Because there will be social and other reprocushions that wouldn’t be positive from such an event.” ________ As opposed to romance bots? Women already objectify men. The entire dating process is set up “to satisfy women’s every (romantic) whim”. The entire, rote learned, format for men does little more then create living bots for those… Read more »
Nothing pisses of the entitled than finding out that they are no longer highly valued and the entitlements they depend upon are now slipping away…….. That was only supposed to happen to the other unfairly entitled groups …NOT us…..never us…….so unfair….LOL
I wonder if those women who think sex bots are objectifying equally think that vibrators and other female-centred sex toys are equally objectifying.
I think I already know the answer to that one…
But, but, that’s different.
Kind of like how sperm banks are good and needed, So women can choose to have kids without be beholden to any man….. but surrogacy with ivf ovum from an egg bank allowing gay men to have kids is immoral.
Exactly Trey. The entitled find it very difficult to think outside themselves and fight tooth and nail harder when asked to consider the rights, feelings and needs of others. Couldn’t have said it better myself. I guess the only real question is who is the ‘entitled’.
Frank – I think vibrators are comparable to sex toys men currently have. I think a fully developed robot designed to look, act and respond like a human being is a very different element from a vibrator or sex toys men also have currently that they use to pleasure themselves.
Men have already had much of their sex based entitlements either stripped away or are in the process of fading away ……. But now comes the unexpected consequences. The same process leads to an equalization between the sexes, as a consequence women’s entitlements and set asides are undergoing the same fading away. Just with about a 30 yrs delay as cultural inertia cracks like a calving glacier……. Overall the process is good and needed for the human race to progress….But noting the mote in someone else’s eye while ignoring the beam in your own …. never works out in the… Read more »
Which entitlements have men had stripped away? In our society, men still seem to carry a lot of sexual entitlements in our culture.
I am all for men and women being ‘equal’. But equal does not mean ‘exactly the same’.
I’ll try one on for size, based on something I said earlier. Chivalry. It’s dead. Imagine an equilateral triangle. A man, a woman, and an elevator door. 20 years ago, that wasn’t a problem. When the door opens, the man pauses, maybe holds the elevator door, just in case, and the woman goes first. It was smooth, it was almost so elegant it was like a ballet. Now, it’s a giant mess, at least once a day for me. (I spend a *lot* of time in elevators these days) Why? Because I don’t have the right to treat women differently,… Read more »
Anthony – Trey doesn’t consider ‘chivalry’ to be a male entitlement that’s been stripped away. He is pretty much against acts of kindness described as ‘chivalry’ when they are directed toward women. So I don’t believe that’s what he was talking about. I have never attacked a man for holding a door open for me. I’ve never seen a man attacked for holding a door open or letting a woman go first. I’m sure it happens but *you* got to be who you want to be instead of other people deciding for you. If you don’t want to be chiverlous,… Read more »
“He is pretty much against acts of kindness described as ‘chivalry’ when they are directed toward women.” Nope…… I want everyone to have the same privileges….Kindness for all rather than being doled out only to women by some ancient sexist formula. Empathy for all, rather than what I’ve seen preached here by some……that men are just not worthy of it. The state to value men’s lives/feelings, need for compassion, just as highly as women’s are. For men to be considered as equal parents rather than as disposable auxiliaries. For the promise of equality to be given more than just lip… Read more »
I have never seen anyone ‘preach’ that men are not worthy of kindness. I also don’t believe that women live in a world that treats them with much kindness or empathy either. But I have learned that my actual experiences as an actual women here holds less merit then when men explain to both men and women what woman’s experiences are.
I have seen you speak out against chivalry Trey. I’m not even sure why that’s offensive to you since you don’t talk about chivalry as being something positive.
“I am all for men and women being ‘equal’. But equal does not mean ‘exactly the same’. As we are not clones…..of course But culturally to progress women need to let go of the traditional to fully grasp the progressive …… No more Being equal “But”…… Just totally equal in what society gives and expects from us. No more no less, No set asides or special privileges for either sex…… We can all expect the same treatment. Children first is fine….. women need to get in line for whatever spots are left after that in the “lifeboat”…… No more tolerating… Read more »
Trey, you said you understand that we aren’t clones, yet you expect all people to agree with your idea on what ‘equality’ means, how it’s defined and how it’s applied. You use that word like you exclusively get to define the terms in which it’s practiced. I’ve talked with you about this before, but by the way you define ‘equality’, my parents’ marriage would have been considered a travesty on ‘equality’. But it wasn’t. They were completely equal. Completely traditional. And happy in their roles. They had different needs and those needs where sometimes met in different ways. They contributed… Read more »
So why do you only seem to advocate against men? Seeming to always minimize harm only when men suffer it? As for heros …I’d love to see women jump in to rescue others as often as men do…but we both know that just doesn’t happen much. Why are you against utter equality…..I suppose some privileges are just too hard too ingrained to let go of and be free from defending?
“I rather live in a world where men and women advocated to help each other.”
I’d love to see you actually do it….. Instead of us tearing down….minimizing our pain…..etc..
Trey, you win. I’m completely against men. That’s right. I only wish to minimize and harm men. You got it. Women are hardly ever heros because they just aren’t as good and kind as men are. Women in general and clearly me personally, are just spoiled, privileged princess who live privileged lifestyles. Men open doors for me all the time, they lay their coats over puddles of mud, they are never mean or harmful or rude. Yes, I mock men’s pain. That’s what I’m about. I just tear men down because that’s the kind of person I am. Nailed it.… Read more »
Erin…. You just need to open your eyes and see that on average men,while having a different set of gender based disadvantages than women, are not without them. The grass ain’t greener on this side of the fence. When we speak of our issues, it’s not helpful to rebut them as inconsequential….In fact many times it’s downright hurtful.
Erin said ….. “I’ve talked with you about this before, but by the way you define ‘equality’, my parents’ marriage would have been considered a travesty on ‘equality’. But it wasn’t. They were completely equal. Completely traditional. And happy in their roles. They had different needs and those needs where sometimes met in different ways. They contributed to their relationship in different ways too” I was speaking in the now…. when the things that balance the male and female roles ….various privileges assigned to different gender roles, have been systematically removed unevenly ….the male gender roles privileges have been scrutinized… Read more »
“On top of that, men who choose to have sex with sex bots however would eventually see their DNA die off. So maybe simply by natural selection, the men who were not looking to procreate would simply eventually die off and women would be left with men that did value them vs men who clearly didn’t.”
Natural selection at its’ finest, indeed.
Lets cut to the chase here. Many women are standing with one foot in the present, and one in 1950. The 1950 is the dating principle. We still expect men to ask, plan, pay, pull chairs, walk behind her, pay for the date etc. etc. They are not dating, they are performing, because “women like that”. Take a look at the many dating sites. Listen to the conversations. We still hold men to as strict set of rote taught expectations that, rather then teach him how to evaluate and pick a good woman, follow a script in order to please… Read more »
Yeah, it’s the same story as it ever was. Imagine a physically unattractive, but otherwise awesome guy being the only man in a room full of 100 women (that’d be me, and yes, it’s close to real life situation I’ve faced). Maybe one of those hundred women, by some quirk, would be interested enough to say yes to a date. He has to approach all of them, one after another, until he finds that one, especially if she isn’t telegraphing her interest through body language, or he sucks at reading it. Even if he starts out confident, chances are he’ll… Read more »
Hi Anthony,
“Even if he starts out confident, chances are he’ll run out of time, or start to lose enthusiasm after the first 20, 30, 40 rejections.”
Yes. And even if by a mere coincidence he happen to approach already on the 3rd or 4th try, that unique woman that might have had some interest in him, she would now turn him down because she wasn’t his first choice (among the 100) and therefore failed at making her feel special…
Oh wow. I wasn’t even thinking about that part of it. So true…ouch. So what was the topic again? Oh yeah, men being at a disadvantage in dating. Seems like we’re damned no matter what we do….yes.
I agree, women had become way too picky in our generation. Plus they want to persue more independence and they want to achieve every time more. Better salaries, better cars better education and of course they look for something better in a man. Good look with that. I believe it should be equality because now days men we are are in more disadvantage than women. Just look at the divorce courts who usually wins the cases, women.
@ Carlos,
“Better salaries, better cars better education and of course they look for something better in a man. Good look with that.”
It’s Eureka!!!!
Just think about what you just wrote…What is wrong with seeking better? Nothing!
These are the EXACT things we men should be seeking Carlos. Instead of hating on it, we men need to embrace it for ourselves. Especially when it comes to women. We need to start looking for “something better in a woman.”
Hi Jules,
Of course, constantly seeking the better, continuous improvement, is what we should all be looking for.
Don’t expect long-term committment to come from that, though.
Because what happens when you get sick, lose your job or is struck with doubt about yourself?
There’s always someone better at playing that role, breathing down your neck.
Not neccessarily better at being YOU. But better at performing whatever the fleeting fad of today is…
Of course men are at a disadvantage, especially with online dating. If you are a shy man you are the bottom of the totem pole in dating since shyness doesn’t harm a woman’s chances of dating anywhere near as much for men. There are far more men than women on dating sites and women get far, far, far more contact. Women are often earning as much as many men, yet are attending and graduating university at much higher levels. Too many women are still looking for equally “educated” men and overlooking the men who’ve done 4 year trades, so these… Read more »
Archy
Be brave and try speed dating where women move around from table to table…
Christian Pucheta here can maybe help you.
He is in Australia .
I am nowhere near Sydney though.
Yeah, I hear that this kind of thing has been tried in North America before, as described in this article. For the purposes of study, of course. The part I’ve read before that I never see mentioned is the part where they poll the women and ask them if they’d try it again. The answers are universally negative. Too stressful, awkward, and even “demoralizing” were among the reasons cited. I did some googling, but I can’t seem to find that study again, but I remember it, and I remember thinking “hey girls, welcome to the world of men, and the… Read more »
Ah, yes, speed dating!
Because nothing beats the rush and experience of being rejected 40 times in a very limited time period!