Veronica Grace would like to share with men the survival tips she’s learned from other women that might also be helpful to men.
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Dear Men:
I’ve been thinking about you alot lately and I’ve begun to wonder if anyone has been telling men the stuff I learned from feminism and my girlfriends. I’m not talking about stuff you need to know about feminism or women, I’m talking about survival tips that we gals share with each other that might be helpful to men these days. I’m talking about ways to do things differently or change the world.
First I should say that of course, I can’t speak for all feminists, I can only speak to my experience with feminism. My experience has been of smart thoughtful passionate women and men working on a large scale toward equality and breaking through gender stereotypes so that individuals can thrive. But there is another level too, a level of personal support and practical suggestions among women, in some cases I would even call it a sisterhood. Over the years I’ve noticed that the men I know didn’t seem to be getting the same advice that I got. I think some of it is really good so I want to share it with you.
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Don’t read magazines that make you feel like you’re not enough. Feminism is always telling women (not that they are all listening) to stop reading fashion magazines because they make you feel like crap. Is anyone telling men to take a moment and think about if that Men’s Fitness, GQ or Fortune Magazine is having a positive effect on their well being? The same goes for all kinds of media and even people you know. If the commercials during a favorite show make you feel like you are supposed to be someone you’re not, record it and skip the commercials. If you have a friend on facebook who is always posting how much money they are making and it makes you feel like crap, block their posts. The key is, does this inspire you or shame you? Does this bit of media or person inspire you to higher levels of who you are or does it it shame you for not being Brad Pitt with the abs of Joe Manganiello, the brain of Stephen Hawking, and the bank account of Bill Gates? If it inspires it stays. If it shames you then consider cutting down its access to your psyche.
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Take time to be on your own after a breakup. It has always been standard among my girlfriends that when someone has a big break up, we talk about how it’s time for them to spend some time on their own. How they need to find out who they are outside of the relationship. Is anyone telling men that they need time after a breakup to get to know themselves? What about telling men that time on your own is important and healthy for you? It gives you time to deal with your issues so that when you start having relationships again you can start from the healthiest possible place. Jumping right back in is a sure way to end up with the same issues you just escaped.
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You don’t have to be hot (or rich) to find a partner. I know this is counter to almost everything most of the media puts out but it’s true. Not only is it true but someone who wants to be with you because they like how you look on their arm will suck as a partner. There is a lot of “attracting” going on out there by people who are visually hot. But, if what you are after is someone who will really see and care for you and not just the boost being with you gives their ego, I guarantee it won’t be someone whose primary interest in you is your looks. Or your bank account. It’s not that it’s not ok to be attractive or have money in the bank, it’s just that if that is what draws someone to you…then you probably don’t want them anyway.
If you want someone who cares for you and not what you can bring them, stop emphasizing the surface. Start emphasizing the things about you that are part of who you are. If you don’t know what those things would be, you need to figure some out before you try to find a partner.
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Size doesn’t matter (as much as you think). It seems to me that what body size is to women, penis size is to men. That’s why there are so many diet spams aimed at women and so many penis size spams aimed at men. It seems like men measure themselves like women weigh themselves, as if the answer holds a key to their value. That is bad enough but men seem to often have as much of a distorted idea of what “average” penis size is, as women often have of what the average women’s clothing size is. Not that being “average” is good enough. Feminism fights against society’s pressure on women to be an unrealistic size, the women I know support each other and share their body worries. Maybe it’s time for men to fight against the illusion of size as an indicator of manhood and have more frank discussions about their own bodies and experiences. Recently there was a great blog here on The Good Men Project about size insecurity. That is a great beginning, but you need more if you are going to even begin to make a dent in this issue. Yes, that’s right, I’m saying talk about your penises more. Talk to your partner, talk to your friends, talk to people on the internet and maybe most importantly talk to your sons. (Oh crap! I just realized I’ll have to be the one to have that talk with my sons.)
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Safety matters. When my girlfriends go on a first date with someone who is not known to one of us or goes out at night alone we have a whole protocol for it. We look out for each other and we are mindful of safety. When I’ve talked to men about this, they blow me off and give an arrogant “I don’t have to worry, I’m a MAN!” attitude. Men can be, and are, targets of violence and harassment. Having a penis does not keep you safe in this world. I’ve argued with crossdressers and trans folks about this issue and I can’t seem to convince them that if they are going to present as a woman, or appear outside of the traditional male gender box at all, they are possibly at an even higher risk of being targeted than a ciswoman depending on the situation.
Straight white men are the most difficult to convince that there may be any reason for them to worry about their safety at all. Men can be the victims of domestic violence and they can be the victims of street violence.
I’m not saying be paranoid, I’m saying consider taking the time to get to know someone a bit before giving them all of your personal information and/or going out with them. I’m saying think about where you are going and if it’s safe. I’m saying allow for the possibility that you are not indestructible nor are you a superhero ninja (unless you are a superhero ninja).
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If someone tries to stuff you in a gender role box, speak up. One thing feminism, in my experience, is great about is telling women to stand up for themselves and not feel bad if they don’t fit into society’s idea of what they should be. I want that for men and I don’t see it happening in very many places. If someone tries to tell you that in order to be a man you have to do or be *insert list here* tell them no. Or “HELL NO!” depending on the situation.
The other day at work one of the guys my husband works with mentioned that he likes yoga. The guys in the office started to tease him until my husband jumped in to say how cool yoga was. I know women have a reputation in some places of being competitive or petty but my experience is that we are much more willing to step out on a social limb to make sure someone else does not feel alone out there than men are. So stand up for yourself and stand up for others.
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If a company or organization tries to stuff you in a gender role box, speak up. Of course the more we change the rigid gender roles that harm men, the better for everyone. This will happen in individual moments but also in larger cultural movements. Feminists see companies, organizations media outlets etc doing things they don’t like and they make a fuss. Men have successfully done this too. For example, getting a sexist Huggies commercial campaign pulled. My question is, are men actively looking around to see what other representations of men they could affect?
On the positive side, feminists actively look for organizations, media and ideas to support. If they don’t see them, they build them. Are men actively looking for organizations and media (like The Good Men Project) to support? Are men thinking about, reading about and talking about the issues that matter to them? Clearly many are, we see them here at The Good Men Project. But think of how much more progress we could make if even more men really invested the kind of time and energy into breaking stereotypes and addressing issues important to them that they invest in other things they really care about.
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Everyone is welcome at the table. I’ve always thought the most important thing I experienced in feminist groups was a striving toward not marginalizing women who fall outside of the narrow box of femininity society supports. Obviously, it’s a journey, not a done deal, but it’s a journey worth taking. If you want to change the world you will need to embrace the parts of you that make you uncomfortable. Then keep going and embrace the way other men live ‘manhood’ even when it makes you cringe.
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photo: tobyotter / f lickr
These are generally good, positive lessons from a feminist perspective. That being said, it would also be good for men to learn from feminism by avoiding some of the pitfalls into which some (some!) feminists have fallen. One can learn as much or more from mistakes as one can from successes. 1. Don’t infantilize women. They are people with agency who make choices, and those choices can be good, bad, or mixed. Women’s choices are not merely products of mass media or hierarchical society but are also products of individual decision. 2. Avoid simple dichotomies. Go beyond the simple binary… Read more »
Have you considered writing this up and submitting it to be a Good Men Project Blog? I agree with all of your points(except #5…I have no idea where you are going with #5), though I think what you are saying is that these are things that feminism has failed to do and yet to me it reads more like a list of what feminists are fighting for. Though I do see alot of struggle around avoiding simple dichotomies. I think that we have alot of work to do there in many groups. Of course, we’re not alone in that area… Read more »
I don’t want to speak for wellokaythen, but I think what he means by #5 is that women’s ability to give birth is one of the reasons that people put them on a pedestal. Its treated as a great act of creation that us lowly men should be in constant awe of basically positioning women as being, if not goddesses, the next closest thing. I’ve seen how internalizing this concept can be damaging to men. Recently I read an interview where a male director said, almost with an air of sadness, that creating a film was the closest he would… Read more »
“Its treated as a great act of creation that us lowly men should be in constant awe of basically positioning women as being, if not goddesses, the next closest thing.”
Technically, it’s the act of gestation- not creation.
Biologically, we humans require the participation of both the female and the male to procreate; but it’s gestation that get the parades & medals.
@ wellokaythen “8. There is no single, monolithic feminism. There are only feminisms.” I’ve had a real issue with this one. The issue is that feminism essentially stands for nothing,since contradictory positions are seen as acceptable feminism. This can and does lead to feminists advocating for the abuse of others. It serves to provide false legitimacy for evil acts. For example feminists will say that fathers should take an equal responsibility for raising their children. They’ll support paternity leave within a committed heterosexual relationship, but when the relationship breaks up oppose the criminalization of visitation interference. They’ll oppose the joint… Read more »
Fair enough. My question is, can you give me an example of a another group working for social changes that does not have the same issue?
The MHRM is pretty effective at kicking out people who abuse the movement. Paul Elam over at AVFM recently did so a couple of times.
How do you kick people out of a movement? Also, It seems that MHRM (I had to google it so I admit to only knowing what the top of the search showed) would be a closer analogy to a sub group under the feminist umbrella than to feminism its self. The first things that came up on my search (well all but two on the first page of results were about Master’s in Human Resource Management) of the two hits that were using the acronym as you are, the first was a blog about the division between MHRM and MRM.… Read more »
I think it’s true with every group to some extent. The MRM tends to be a lot more consistent. They don’t segment society up into a lot of different groups like feminism does. You never hear MRAs talking about female MRAs except when informing feminists that they exist. You don’t hear male MRAs referring to female MRAs as “allies”. They are MRAs, full and equal partners in the struggle for social justice. Although MRAs advocate for gay, trans, minority, and (occasionally) women’s rights, they don’t advocate for them because they’re gay or trans or minority or women. Being human is… Read more »
This is not meant to be a defense of feminism in particular, but more of a general response: If a set of ideas or viewpoints has internal contradictions, does that mean that they therefore have nothing to offer? Just because a set of arguments are not entirely consistent does not make them completely invalid. It makes them illogical and inconsistent, but then again a lot of worthwhile things have internal contradictions or tensions – democracy, constitutional freedoms, moral codes, etc. In any event, if there are two feminists who diametrically disagree with each other, perhaps one is right and the… Read more »
I think you make a lot of good points, wellokaythen, but I would categorically disagree with this: 6. Own your thoughts and feelings. They are yours. They come mostly from the inside out, not outside in. Take responsibility and ownership for the way that you feel. No one can make you feel bad about yourself without your consent. I see variations of this sentiment expressed a lot, and to me it is self-evidently false. Of course people can make you feel bad about yourself. Humans are inherently social creatures, and our experience of how other people define us is a… Read more »
Thanks for the reply, OP. I know you’re not trying to convert anyone, specifically. It’s just that whenever articles like this are written, in the past, there’s this implicit message that you need to believe in feminism or be a feminist if you’re ever going to fight for equality. Even when it’s very subtle, dressed in empathy and consideration for the other side (men). OP “It sounds like this is a lesson you’ve already learned. To read and watch with a mind ready to say “this is not ok, this is not for me” and then shut it off. Have… Read more »
Eagle35, I wouldn’t expect you to necessarily get a letter back, or even for your letter alone to make a difference, but when they start getting more letters they may start to listen or at least have it on their radar. You said “So I take it they’re so fixated on women’s pain that anything not related doesn’t get so much as a mention or even a nod of empathy. I already learned that lesson, the HARD way, hence my original question.” and I have to tell you that I have no idea where you got that from what I… Read more »
Veronica: “I wouldn’t expect you to necessarily get a letter back, or even for your letter alone to make a difference, but when they start getting more letters they may start to listen or at least have it on their radar.” Hate to be the cynical party-pooper, OP, but the day any of what you predict would happen is the day pigs master the ability to fly. Neil Gaiman and Clive Barker are established artists with cred and influence in their respective fields. What am I? A lowly fan/writer who’s only notoriety is a radio show on Blogtalkradio.com that isn’t… Read more »
OP, you may have clarified that your voice for feminism doesn’t neccessarily reflect feminism itself but I’ll ask this question anyway because it’s always been prominet one in my mind whenever I read articles such as this. Why should I put my absolute trust in feminism or even believe everything it has to offer? I ask this because I’m someone who was seriously harmed by both genders in the past yet can find little avenues of support or sympathy (save for maybe some in a close-knit community) for the damage the female gender wrought. When I told some feminists about… Read more »
I second this.
Everyone welcome around the table? Absolutely flat-out untrue in my experience. I did learn a lot from feminism, and then ultimately learned that the bulk of the movement wasn’t interested in having men use those lessons to talk about their issues.
I can’t speak to your experiences of feminism. My experience has been of women who were absolutely aware of the vital necessity of having everyone be equal in order to make our world and society healthy and whole.
But, for arguments sake, let’s say that your experience is more representative of feminism than mine is …do you really care if they are interested in you using those lessons to talk about issues affecting men? I don’t. I will steal lessons from wherever I need to to make this world a better place for everyone but most especially for my sons.
I would entirely agree with borrowing lessons from elsewhere – it’s what I’ve done myself – and would encourage other men to do the same. Just pointing out that feminism is frequently not your friend if you care about men’s issues.
But does it bother me that a group that claims to be for gender equality and pretty much sets the tone on gender equality discussion isn’t actually for gender equality in many respects?
Yeah, that’s a pretty big disappointment. It could be so much better, as it is it not much help for men.
Eagle35, Please, please do NOT put faith in feminism. Do not put faith in any group. You may be able to build faith with an individual but a group is an awful bet. I’m a big fan of NOT believing. Two of my favorite quotes are “Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders.… Read more »
@ Eagle35 “Why should I put my absolute trust in feminism or even believe everything it has to offer?” I wouldn’t put mu absolute trust in anything. I don’t agree with everything the MRM does either. Some of the positions there are inconsistent as well. For example many in the MRM will condem Schrödinger’s Rapist, but will support MGTOW. I have no problem with Schrödinger’s Rapist as long as I’m not expected to accommodate a woman’s irrational fear. I have no problem with MGTOW as long as they treat women with the respect, courtesy, and dignity they deserve outside their… Read more »
You don’t have to be rich but they have linked women orgasm more when their partners earn more 😉
Show me that study.
Hi Veronica
It is mentioned in a book called “orgasm” by Purvis. Women have more orgasm the wealthier her man are. That is an interesting book!
This study It is said to be from China. Some dispute it and say it is a study where men can be described as “having cars or not having cars at all. “
But stress could affect sexual performance or desire. I imagine the wealthy have less stress so it should follow that wealth affects sexual enjoyment / performance.
Perhaps women fake with rich men more than with poor men?
Perhaps men who consider themselves rich are bad at telling when their partner has had an orgasm.
Archy : You don’t have to be rich but they have linked women orgasm more when their partners earn more ‘
Yes I believe it. But this is limited only to the women who is into money and luxury. Sex starts in the brain, so if she is that kind of woman, its no surprise she will be in awe of her man ALSO for the money he brings in. As I said, I dont believe its universal for all women. Some are turned on by bad boys, other from gentlemen some for resourches (aka money) others for other reasons….etc.
You mean if the man actually makes a lot, or if the woman just THINKS he makes a lot?….
I think you over-estimate how much store men place in penis-size; I don’t think it is comparable to the pressures that are put on women regarding weight. For one thing it doesn’t show when you’ve got your clothes on unless cycle shorts or leotards is your chosen fashion statement, in which case I think size is the least of your problems! 🙂 And by the time someone is intimate enough with you to get to judge your penis size, and I don’t think women ever openly judge a man about his penis size to his face unless he has proved… Read more »
Here’s the problem with posting before proof reading! This bit:
“And by the time someone is intimate enough with you to get to judge your penis size”
is an incomplete thought and was supposed to read:
“And by the time someone is intimate enough with you to get to judge your penis size they’ve already effectively been won over.”
I agree with everything you said about penis size, except that I think men are just not talking to you about their penis fears. For example back in the day when people randomly IMed people on aol it said in my profile that I had taught sex ed and I would get several random IMs a week from teenage boys all the way up through older men asking me about penis size. What was the average, how much did women care etc. Fast forward a few years and I moderated a large online group where people would ask questions about… Read more »
I think a lot of the image problems with the penis come from two things. When a man sees another penis (locker room or porno) they generally see penis’s from the side where as they only see their own from above. This accounts for about an inch or two just in the difference in perspective. Secondly men can confuse soft size with hard size and they are not related at all. Those men who have a long soft size don’t get erections much bigger then that but you can have an old 1inch soft willie but still have a 5inch… Read more »
I think alot of image problems about penis size come from porn. (o: Just like looking at size zero super models distorts people’s images of what a healthy body looks like so does spending time watching size over large penises in porn.
You also have totally valid points, and I can say I’ve never once heard a woman say she cared at all about soft size.
I have watched quite a number of “feminist porn sites”, and yes the women do come in all kinds of shapes and sized at these sites, now what I wonder is if penis size is so irrelevant why do all the men that feature in these feminist porn movies all have huges penii?
I’m somewhat certain I’ll be sorry for asking but…Feminist Porn Sites?
Yes porn that is branded as “feminist” and “female friendly”.
I am betting that being “branded” as feminist, is much like being “branded” as “all natural.” Generally when you see “all natural” on a package it means “there’s crap in here we don’t want you to think about so we put a nice label on here so you don’t worry your little head about it.” Ideas can be feminist, people can be feminist. Products are things someone is trying to sell someone. Their labeling is inherently untrustworthy in my cynical opinion. I have seen a bit of porn that was labeled “by women for women.” The problem is, that it… Read more »
@ Joseph “I would say when it comes to body image women do have the rougher end of the stick by a long-chalk. ” I don’t agree. Women may have it tougher, but not by as much as you suggest. I think the main difference is the assumption that the only body image problem is beauty, since men aren’t as highly valued for their beauty, they don’t have as much of a problem, but men are valued for their strength. I remember the 98 lb weakling don’t let anyone kick sand in your face weightlifting ads in comic books targeted… Read more »
“Take time to be on your own after a breakup. It has always been standard among my girlfriends that when someone has a big break up, we talk about how it’s time for them to spend some time on their own. How they need to find out who they are outside of the relationship. Is anyone telling men that they need time after a breakup to get to know themselves? What about telling men that time on your own is important and healthy for you? It gives you time to deal with your issues so that when you start having… Read more »
See and I think the reason that it’s ironic is because it’s such awful advice! Not only is it awful advice but then I bet it makes some guys feel like more of a failure. Not only did their relationship just break up but their guy friends got them all hyped up to go get some and then that doesn’t happen. How bad does that feel? At least if your friends are telling you to take some time you can heal some before having to go out there and deal with potential rejection or feel like you are failing in… Read more »
To be honest, I’ve not heeded that advice anyway, myself; but I’ve witnessed it being given to a guy loads of times, and winced at it. It’s difficult to wade in and say “I think that’s terrible advice” when I’ve hardly been successful myself, not by the male yardstick, at any rate. But yes, I’ve always maintained you need time to work through the feelings for the previous person, rather than burying your emotions; and if there’s no reflexive practice how can you learn anything?
I know that it’s hard, but I think that you should speak up and say “i think that’s terrible advice.” Advice like that is bad in so many ways. I think that a lot of guys say that because it spares them the task of actually talking to their friend and listening to him and giving him better, more helpful advice. It’s the kind of thing that guys say when they don’t want to have to deal with someone’s emotions. I think a lot of guys want to call BS on that kind of thinking and maybe you speaking up… Read more »
“Take time to be on your own after a breakup. It has always been standard among my girlfriends that when someone has a big break up, we talk about how it’s time for them to spend some time on their own. How they need to find out who they are outside of the relationship. Is anyone telling men that they need time after a breakup to get to know themselves? That’s kind of odd to me, because in my social circles, it seems that most break-ups occur because the woman in the relationship has found someone new and just goes… Read more »
Well in my social circles that doesn’t happen often, obviously poly situations get more complicated in the time on your own area but in general the women I know strongly support and recommend time on your own after a break up. I remember one women in our circle who many of us did sort of a gentle-ish intervention with because it seemed to us that she was jumping in too soon and it had this frantic feel to it. We said hey we love you and we think this is going to be really bad for you. In some ways… Read more »
Oh, and I forgot to thank you for an article very well written.
In my opinion, it does clash with reality and experience in some points. However, I can see where you are coming from with it, and I commend you for intention and effort 🙂
LOL Thanks…I think(o:
@ FlyingKal
I think men are more invested in keeping a relationship because:
1. They picked the woman (men initiate contact).
2. They’ve invested a lot of emotional capital and have faced rejection on more numerous occasions.
I think women are more open to changing boyfriends because she didn’t ask him out so he might not have been her first choice.
I think women are extremely invested in keeping a relationship because they are told if they don’t have one they have failed (among tons of other varied and layered messages that link a woman’s value to being wanted). But I think that you make good points to consider about where men are coming from.
“I think women are extremely invested in keeping a relationship because they are told if they don’t have one they have failed” That manifests itself in more ways than one. My niece has to have a boyfriend. Her boyfriends tended to be a few years older than she, unemployed, and not going to school. She’s a pretty girl and I guess that’s part of why she changed boyfriends every 6 or so months. Her new boyfriend is attending college and comes from a wealthy family. Maybe he’s a keeper. I think part of the problem with society telling girls that… Read more »
I agree, being with someone that you are not really interested in or not really interested in them as a person as opposed to what they can give you is not fair to anyone.
@Veronica Grace.. “I think women are extremely invested in keeping a relationship because they are told if they don’t have one they have failed (among tons of other varied and layered messages that link a woman’s value to being wanted). ” This is totally false. Women terminate over 70% of ALL relationships. Clearly, one only does this if their is little invested. I know women who will start dating and having sex with a new guy. I ask “so, how is your new friend?” Usually their answer is something like this: “Oh, well he is OK for now. But, I… Read more »
Can you show me where you are getting your information from regarding the 70%?
I know women who don’t do that. You need to know different women.
I’m not catching your meaning regarding serial monogamists. Do you mean since some women don’t stay with the same person their whole life they are not committed to relationships?
70% might be inexact, but it does seem like the general idea that women end most relationships holds true. The Wikipedia on divorce says this: “According to a study published in the American Law and Economics Review, women have filed slightly more than two-thirds of divorce cases in the United States.[81] There is some variation among states, and the numbers have also varied over time, with about 60% of filings by women in most of the 19th century, and over 70% by women in some states just after no-fault divorce was introduced, according to the paper. Evidence is given that… Read more »
It’s not politically correct to say so, but a lot of this kind of peer support for men is actually happening on the MRM sites and MGTOW sites. There, men’s decision to define themselves and build a life totally apart from what women want or demand is encouraged, and even applauded. But there’s a strong separatist bent there, so that bias seeps into many of the conversations.
I have to admit, I want to be open minded but separatism is a red flag for me. My soul leans toward inclusiveness. Inclusiveness feels right to me and the opposite makes me very leery.
I agree. Seperatism only increases misogyny and misandry respectively; it doesn’t change society for the better – if anything it’s kind of opting out of society.
@ Veronica Grace That depends on whether separation is akin to taking a break or is permanent. I don’t see a problem with men taking a break from women to assess what they want to do and how they want to live their lives. I also don’t have a philosophical problem with it. As long as they afford women the respect, courtesy, and dignity outside their home that they deserve, I don’t see it as wrong. I concede it might be a red flag because it’s difficult to do. I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt. My main concern… Read more »
My red flag is about an organization or group that wants to separate from society, not about individuals having time on their own. I think we have a serious issue with not encouraging people to spend time on their own. If I didn’t make it clear I am absolutely for men taking a break and determining what they need and want for themselves. I am for everyone doing that. Maybe it’s the introvert in me but I tend to think being healthy requires time on your own and getting to know yourself and your needs. How you regulate or if… Read more »
Another good article Veronica. Your sons are lucky to have a mom like you.
Thank you, Paul(o: I’m lucky to have them.
An interesting article. I wasn’t sure what to make of it initially. Men and women are both placed into gender boxes, but they’re different boxes. Men have been taught to repress their feelings. Opening up may be natural to women, but not to men. What worked for women may not work for men. One of the things feminism did to men was that it worked to dismantle male spaces. Men probably need to recreate these safe spaces and some have worked to do just that. Without the safe spaces, it’s difficult to have the needed discussions and to organize for… Read more »
John, That is absolutely true. It’s true in between individuals but also true when you take advice from one group to another. But that doesn’t mean you can’t find inspiration for how to do something in a way that can work from how someone else does things. That’s one of my favorite ways to learn, I love to see what is another country doing or what is another non profit doing(when I worked for a non profit) and how can we take those ideas and make them work for us? On the spaces I think that men do need male… Read more »
I noticed you referred to other women by using the G-word. That is an interesting development.
Having a penis does not keep you safe in this world. I’ve argued with crossdressers and transfolks about this issue and I can’t seem to convince them that if they are going to present as a woman, or appear outside of the traditional male gender box at all, they are possibly at an even higher risk of being targeted than a ciswoman depending on the situation. the majority of men couldnt wear women’s clothing as they are afraid of ridicule and physical attack. what they would not realise is that there is an elevated risk of being raped also. the… Read more »
Jameseq, I’m really happy to hear that is the case. My experience ranges from a close friend who was transitioning and absolutely had this attitude that she could defend herself to several discussions on a few different online communities with the same issue. My friend and I argued about it for months until she was attacked one night at a convenience store. She was ok, but very shaken. More than that she beat herself up because even as she was transitioning she still held onto this idea that she was a failure if she couldn’t physically defend herself. My experience… Read more »
My experience in the online discussions is that far more CDs and TGs are worried about passing and being harassed then are truly mindful of safety for it’s own sake to my mind, there is no difference. if i dont present a strong front that stills the harassment – the simian subconscious of the predators will think they can move freely from verbally attacking to physically attacking me I still hear an attitude from some that says “I may be a man in a dress but I’m still a man I’ll just kick their asses!” or “I may be a… Read more »
I agree that having that attitude can be the difference in safety or not. But if that is what they are going for I think they are doing it in a very dangerous way in front of people, especially CDs who have little or no experience going out. It’s one thing to say go out there with this attitude because it helps with the danger, its another to act like there is no danger because you are so…well manly, oddly enough. Maybe they need this mind set in order to feel safe enough to go out dressed? I bet I… Read more »
This is for trans women who don’t pass. If they pass then they get treated like women.
there is still an elevated risk of attack New York Police have arrested a 20-year-old man in connection with the death of a transgendered woman in a possible hate crime that occurred across the street from a police precinct. 21-year-old Islan Nettles and her friend, another trans woman, were out Saturday night around 11 pm near 148th Street and Eighth Avenue in Harlem when they met a group of boys. NY1 reports that an argument erupted once the suspect learned that Nettles was not born a female. http://www.queerty.com/trans-woman-dead-after-being-viciously-beaten-outside-nyc-police-station-20130823/#ixzz2dCx2nMEF the trans woman later died. that could happen to any trans woman… Read more »
I think that “pass” is more of a continuum than fitting into one box or the other. In any case, either they “pass” in that situation and need to be aware of their safety as someone presenting as a woman or they don’t “pass” and they need to be aware of their safety as someone who is outside of gender norms and may be a target because of that.
The majority of men wouldn’t wear women’s clothing……
Because it’s women’s clothing….
The buttons are on the wrong side and the pockets won’t carry the stuff men carry– for starters.
Well it’s true the majority (according to statistics I’ve seen, though not sure how accurately you can count that sort of thing) of men don’t wear women’s clothing. I will fight for their right to be able to if feels right to them…but for myself I don’t like to wear alot of women’s clothes because of the lack of pockets. I don’t really notice the buttons either way(o:
According to statistics?
How about according to eyeball?
i sew in deeper pockets, .
the nonathletic short shorts u and i both wore 20/25yrs ago, are now only women’s clothes.
you, i, james bond were actually women
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/film/3670793/James-Bond-the-spy-who-changed-me.html
and who cares about buttons, really
lol,
anyone else want to join the party
I’m far too lazy to sew new pockets into things. I’ll just stick with buying man pants. (o:
I hate shaving my face. It would kill me if I had to shave my legs and forget waxing. Sorry, long pants for me even in the summer.
Womens buts are shaped differently – their pants and panties are tight in areas they shouldn’t be and loose in others.
– Don’t ask 🙂 I was 18 and it was a fancy dress party and one of the best nights I have had. Yes I freely admit it took copius amounts of alcohol to get me into the party. Apparently I am sometimes a prude.
True, I have an easier time finding men’s shorts than pants because of the differently placed space.
On the other hand…skirts fit anyone quite well. I should admit right here that besides my husband, I think Eddie Izzard is the hottest man on earth.
And that lack of short-shorts really hurts when you’re under, say, 5’10” in height. It seems that the standard inseam for men’s shorts these days is 10 to 11 inches, and that does not vary at all depending on the size. A pair of shorts with a 44-inch waist will have the same inseam as a pair with a 28-inch waist. Oh, but it gets worse! The manufacturers save money by cutting the men’s pants and shorts mostly the same, and just altering the waist size. They keep the rise (distance from crotch to waist) pretty much the same, so… Read more »
I run into the opposite problem…to short of an inseam leaving me with pants that are trying to be too friendly. But I think you are making my case for skirts for men…then you don’t have to worry about the inseam(o: To be serious for a moment, that’s actually something I didn’t know. From my perspective(and I have to admit I’m 5’11”) I look at women’s clothes and think they are not adjusting for different sizes, and thought how great is it that men’s pants at least come made to measurement rather than some imaginary size someone made up. I… Read more »
I run into the opposite problem…to short of an inseam leaving me with pants that are trying to be too friendly
im six foot too, 140lb
hehe, yes i too own two trousers with the eyewatering 9inch or less crotches lol – i used to wear them loose n off the hip.
my women’s linen trousers has a crotch of 14/15inches. i lucked out on that, as my male trousers have crotches of 12inches, which ram uncomfortably right into my groin when i sit.
I’ve just never felt comfortable in shorts. That might be the reason why. At times people will question why I’m wearing long sweat pants on a really hot summer day, I just tell them if I wore shorts, I’d run the risk of being arrested for indecent exposure. Guys usually say yeah right, but I’ve had a woman or two just pause speechless.
I have ridiculously short legs- 28″ inseam- and sitting I’m as tall as a 6′ person…
LandsEnd sells shorts online to accommodate the situation.
Hi Veronica, Thanks for the article. For too long the gender debate has been dominated by women and in particular feminists. We can’t hope to bridge the gap between the genders by listening to only one side of the discussion. Since most women and men do not identify as feminist we are excluding a large proportion of people if only feminists are allowed to set the rules of the discussion. I think we are finally starting to get to the point where men are wading into the gender conversation. And I think some progressive minded feminists, such as yourself, are… Read more »
Thank you Scott, I am really excited about men wading into the gender conversation. I truly believe we will make no progress alone and that inequality in any direction is bad for everyone. I also have two sons who I want to be able to be who they are and have the most opportunities possible. On checking privilege I think it’s a valid issue to examine in ourselves, but it needs to be used to further the conversation not shut it down. As a straight white middle income mostly able bodied ciswomen in the United States I have a hell… Read more »
“check your privellage” – or one of the responces I received recently; in response to the question “is there a need for a men’s movement?” the response was “No, you’re the oppressors; that’s like joining a white supremacy movement”! The thing is I’ve found this site invaluable over the last few months for helping me talk about areas where I feel I have got a raw deal because of assumptions made about me because of my gender. Robert Bly, a Jungian psychologist, referred to the Jungian concept of the shadow as being a long bag of things we repress and… Read more »
There is much work to be done and there are still many who invalidate men’s opinions using phrases such as “check your privilege” to invalidate their contributions. Slowly, we are starting to see progress. I just wish that more and more and more women and feminists realized just how damaging this is to men and to themselves. Although the same feminist that likened male rights to white supremacy also said regarding my marriage “I think you were in an abusive relationship, but being a man you wouldn’t have been taught to be aware or look out for that” – oh… Read more »
In my dream world there would be no men’s movement and no women’s movement, it would be a gender equality movement and everyone would be invited.
Thinking about it, information to help men identify an abusive relationship should have been on my list. Though that probably needs its own blog and should be done by someone truly qualified to write about that.
“In my dream world there would be no men’s movement and no women’s movement, it would be a gender equality movement and everyone would be invited.” … So where have the feminists been with respect to changing VAWA to be all inclusive? Why weren’t the feminists in from of the President when he re-authorized it VAWA this year? BAWA, IMO would have been the best first true platform to do what you wish.
When I’m the boss I’ll get right on that. It’s my understanding that there are protections for men under the Office on Violence Against Women. I also understand that there is controversy about how they allocate their resources and if they are using them appropriately to serve men. It’s a journey. Feminists are not a united group, they just seem in my perception to be more organized and vocal then men seeking equality. I am proud that many people, many who consider themselves feminists fought hard to keep the provisions that are inclusive to LGBT, Trans, Native and immigrant people.… Read more »
Could you give me specific language in the act that reflects violence against men. If it’s “all inclusive” why did the name remain the same? I would also appreciate your giving me a list of “battered men shelters.”
Thinking about it, information to help men identify an abusive relationship should have been on my list. Though that probably needs its own blog and should be done by someone truly qualified to write about that.
I can see why you would want to include it but I can understand why you didn’t because regardless of whether you’re qualified or not you don’t want to try to cram everything into an article (its a problem i often run into when I write posts), which was a good read. Thanks for sharing.
Thank you.
I sent an e-mail to Lisa from The Good Men Project and she said they have had articles about that before but we are both going to keep our eyes out for someone who could write about it again.
I’m going to have to disagree with anyone who says that men don’t have disadvantages in some areas. I think that gender issues cut both ways. They are all part of the same issue. I don’t think you can lock people into stereotypes and unequal power dynamics and have anyone benefit. I think it harms us all and we should be working on it together. One thing that I think happens is that people do not deal with shame well, and many people have shame around their privilege. So you end up with men who are avoiding dealing with shame… Read more »
@ Veronica Grace “One thing that I think happens is that people do not deal with shame well, and many people have shame around their privilege.” This is something I hear feminists say all the time. It’s just shame over privilege. I used a boxing analogy in the comment section of this post to illustrate unearned advantage (privilege). https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/would-a-real-man-push-back-gmp/ Essentially the OP believed that a taller fighter had a reach advantage because he had longer arms. I pointed out that if the smaller fighter moved a few inches closer, the advantage (unearned privilege) shifts ti the boxer with the shorter… Read more »
I’m going to have to disagree with anyone who says that men don’t have disadvantages in some areas. I think that gender issues cut both ways. They are all part of the same issue. I don’t think you can lock people into stereotypes and unequal power dynamics and have anyone benefit. I think it harms us all and we should be working on it together. I appreciate you pointing this out. I think the problem isn’t whether or not men face any disadvantages. I think the problem is how far reaching are those disadvantages. From what I’ve see a common… Read more »
Maybe it’s the overwhelming attitude in our culture that everything is a win/lose situation, that we are all either the one on top or the one on the bottom and that the one on the top could not possibly be suffering. Also, there is a shallowness that seems to leave people putting someone in a box and not understanding that they change positions in different situations and different times.
I don’t understand how someone could say that the issues of one group in a dynamic are institutional and the other are personal.
I don’t understand how someone could say that the issues of one group in a dynamic are institutional and the other are personal.
Well considering how admantly that sentiment is defended (seriously look at how hard a lot of feminists push the point of male privilege and then turn around and deny the existence of female privilege) I think its pretty much what you said.
@ Joseph “But still there’s a lot of distrust amongst many feminists towards any sort of male movement because it’s seen as being necessarily anti-feminist and/or misogynistic. ” Feminism centers women so anything that does not center women is seen as misogyny by feminists. Look at their new thing men’s problems are caused by the devaluing of the feminine as if family court judges are telling men sorry even though you want to raise your children, you’re far too good for that so I’m dumping them on your wife who just happens to want them also. Society values the feminine… Read more »
That’s not my experience. My experience is with women who want everyone to have an equal seat at the table. Can you see that the flip side of the coin that says women have less value in the world and should stay home is this idea that men are valued outside of the home…and not in it? To me it’s so clear every stereotype, every off balance power dynamic hurts everyone. Even the fact that women get paid less plays into this. So if you have a family and one of you is going to stay home the one who… Read more »
That’s my experience as well John. Homophobia is based on the devaluation of female sexuality. Fathers are devalued as parents because mothers are overvalued as parents. Male victims of female violence are not getting the help they need because violent women are not taken seriously. No matter where you turn the problem will nearly always be because of hatred/disregard/etc…. of women. Feminism really needs to quit treating the harms that befall men as side effects of a system that is looking to keep women down. The system is looking to mow down anyone, male or female, to keep its own… Read more »
“The system is looking to mow down anyone, male or female, to keep its own power. Plain and simple.” Exactly. And I’m sure there are women out there fighting the fight against men, instead of against the system. I’m sure many of them consider themselves feminists. I’m also sure it’s human nature. I’m sure it’s happened in every similar system. Some of the blacks in South Africa fighting the whites instead of the system, people fighting the people of the dominant religion in an area instead of fighting the system. That doesn’t make it ok. That just means it’s not… Read more »