Harris O’Malley asserts that enthusiastic consent is important not only for rape prevention, but also because it facilitates really, really great sex.
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The topic of rape culture and what it means to give consent has been coming up in conversations online and off lately. The discussion regarding whether a sex scene in HBO’s Girls depicted rape, sexual assault or just bad sex helped bring the topic to the forefront of the Internet. Meanwhile, conviction of two of the suspects in the Stubenville rapes fired up the conversation again when the defense’s primary argument was that the boys “didn’t receive a definite no” from a girl who was so intoxicated that she literally couldn’t stand upright and was being carried around like a side of beef.
In the aftermath of the guilty verdict, several people observed that many of the teens at the party didn’t realize that this was rape. To them, the fact that the victim was unconscious didn’t mean anything. “I didn’t know this was rape,” said one witness. “It wasn’t violent.” It wasn’t a stranger leaping out of the shadows, knife in hand to drag her into a dank back alley. It was just some guys and a girl who was too drunk to say “no”.
The idea of just avoiding a “no” is a distressingly common one. The emphasis on consent is often the idea of “No”. “No means no” we are taught, that when a woman says “stop”, we stop. That’s good. That’s incredibly important.
But sometimes it’s not enough to just not get a no. You need more.
It’s not just about not getting a “no”. It’s about getting a definitive “yes”.
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A Question Of Consent
The emphasis on avoiding “no” can sometimes make the discussion surrounding the idea of consent seem needlessly complicated.
In Girls, Adam (played by Adam Driver) and his new girlfriend Natalia (Shiri Appleby) start off having sex… and it’s not pleasant. After having agreed to Natalia’s preferences – no soft (ticklish) touching, no ejaculating inside her – things take a darker turn. Their first time having sex – where Adam even says “I like how clear you are with me” – was enjoyable. The next time… not so much. Adam demands that she crawl on her hands and knees across his filthy floor, ignores her protests that she hasn’t showered as he goes down on her and pays no attention to her half-hearted participation. At the end, he pulls out and starts masturbating, aiming for a porn-style money shot. At the last minute he listens to her numb protests to not ejaculate on her dress and cums on her chest instead. “I, like, really didn’t like that,” says Natalia afterwards.
It’s profoundly uncomfortable – intentionally so – and is designed to bring up many questions. Did she consent? Did saying “wait, I didn’t take a shower” count as a “no”? Was Adam supposed to understand that Natalia was trying to refuse without upsetting him, or is it completely understandable to assume that her complaint was her worrying about his discomfort at her lack of cleanliness? When she’s only half-heartedly participating in his demands – that she really likes him, how he looks and his apartment – should he have taken that as a sign to stop? Would it be reasonable to assume that she was still consenting?
For someone who liked clarity, shit got murky really fast… and left people wondering what the hell they just watched.
All too often, when the subject of consent focuses on “no means no”, you inevitably find people who will insist that the concept is muddled and confusing. When we say that “no means no” and someone doesn’t give a definitive no, what does that mean?
In many ways, the focus on “no” puts the burden – yet again – on women to rein in the libidos of men who presumably can’t control themselves… and in many ways can put them at a disadvantage. Women are often socialized to be non-direct for fear of causing offense; many women are frequently uncomfortable with being up front with saying “No, I don’t want this.” In the case of Girls, Natalia protests to Adam that she hasn’t taken a shower; she’s trying to give him the wave-off as he pulls her underwear down but he either misses her meaning or possibly ignores it deliberately.
Alcohol also has a way of making a definitive “no” hard to recognize. While booze doesn’t create emotions – a person who doesn’t like somebody isn’t going to magically going to fall in love because he or she has had one too many cocktails – it does lower one’s capacity for rational thought and decision making. A person may not want to have sex with someone, but enough booze will can make them more likely to give in to pressure or to otherwise make poor decisions.
A focus on “no” also causes many people – mostly men – to worry about misreading signals. Others will incessantly challenge the idea of rape and rape culture by trying to rules-lawyer consent1 with an endless repetition of theoretical situations and “what ifs” in order to “prove” that consent is confusing and difficult to acquire. “Is it rape if she passes out while we’re having sex she consented to? What if she gets off on being roofied? What if she forgot the safeword?”
You can what-if and “is it rape if” until the cows come home. When you switch to the idea of affirmative or enthusiastic consent – focusing on getting an unambiguous “YES” instead of stopping at “no” – it changes the equation entirely.
– photo credit: goat’s greetings
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“Yes Means Yes”
Enthusiastic consent is fairly simple. It’s the idea that while “no means no” is important, getting a “yes” is even more important.
Hope I didn’t just blow your mind there.
More seriously: think about it. The idea of enthusiastic consent is all about making sure that your partner is genuinely into having sex… that you are getting clear and unambiguous signals that he or she wants to fuck. It’s the difference between “Dear God I want to fuck you right now” and “Yeah… I guess, whatever” when they really mean “no”. Similarly, a partner who is simply not resisting but otherwise not saying anything is not giving enthusiastic consent. It’s about more than just needing to get off – because that’s easy enough to do on your own – but having an experience with your partner. It makes sex about the two (or more…) of you rather than one person using the other as a sex toy that can occasionally help move boxes and dust the window sills.
The focus on an unambiguous yes (or a “give me your cock” or “I want you to eat me out right the fuck now”… you get the idea) cuts out any murkiness around the idea of whether somebody is consenting. It’s hard to mistake a “please fuck me”, after all. It simplifies the issue rather nicely. Didn’t get a “Yes”? You don’t have sex. End of.
That “enthusiastic” part is important, too, because it comes with the understanding that consent isn’t a binary decision – it’s not all or nothing, always on or always off. It’s an understanding that consent falls on a sliding scale and can be dialed back or forward as both partners feel the need. Just because somebody said “yes” earlier doesn’t mean that they couldn’t change their mind later on… even in the middle of things, if it comes to it. If one partner or the other indicates that they’re no longer in the mood or that they don’t like what’s happening – such as Natalia’s lackluster, limp agreement to Adam’s requests – the sex stops.
Thing is though: this doesn’t necessarily mean that things are over. A person can decide that he or she is no longer willing to have penetrative sex… but is perfectly happy (again: enthusiastic, not just offering to keep the other person from getting angry or upset) to have oral sex, or give a handjob or just cuddle for a while. The important part, though, is what it says: that you respect and are invested enough in your partner – even if it’s a one-night stand – that you want their full and eager participation. It’s an expression of the collaborative model of sex, the idea of sex as a jam session between two people who want to have fun together, rather than the adversarial model that encourages men to get what they want as cheaply as possible.
This approach encourages active communication with your partner, something that I believe to be required for really good sex. You have to be willing to talk about what you want and what you don’t want before and even during sex, establishing important boundaries. It mandates that you’re paying attention to your partner’s pleasure as much as you are to your own and being sensitive to their level of participation and involvement. It means that you can’t just take consent for granted – even if your potential partner has been giving every possible signal that the two of you are going to have sex – they still have to assent in the affirmative rather than one person assuming that it’s fait accompli and risking making a huge mistake.
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The Difference Between “…yes” and “YES!”
I want to put a special note on the word enthusiastic because, frankly, not every “yes” is equal. In fact, there are many times when “yes” still means no.
I’ve seen many discussions on the ways of turning a “no” into a “yes”. Some people are known for suggesting that a woman’s first couple of “no’s” don’t count, or that phrases like “We’re not having sex tonight” is meant to be a shit-test, a “can you change my mind?” challenge rather than an explicit statement that she does not intend or want to have sex with you tonight. Some will talk about making it about what she “owes” him – he bought dinner /rented the movie /paid for the plane tickets and now she’s required to pay him back with sex. Others will rely on guilt – “I guess I thought you really loved me…” or emotional threats like “If you don’t, I’ll find someone who will“.
In PUA circles, you will find discussion about handling “no” in jargonistic terms like “Anti-Slut Defense”2 or “Last Minute Resistance” (LMR for short). The tactics involved in “handling” LMR or breaking through her “Anti-Slut Defense” can vary from ignoring her first signs of refusal to utilizing social pressure to coerce a women into sex via freezing her out. The freeze-out involves withdrawing all positive attention – essentially giving her the silent treatment – until she feels the pressure to reinitiate sexual contact. It plays directly on the social contract and the way that women are trained to interact with men, as well as our instinctive need for social approval. It plays on a person’s complexes and insecurities, making them want to reconnect with those good feelings and leave her believing that it’s her fault for all of it going away.
Sound a little ridiculous? Imagine if you will, that you’re hanging out with someone you care about; everything’s happy, you’re having fun. You’re having incredible conversations, the kind where you feel like you’re communicating on the deepest levels… and then you do something innocuous and it all turns off like a light. Now all that warmth has gone. You’re getting short, curt, single syllable answers, they refuse to look at you. They insist that nothing’s wrong, but everything about the way they’re acting screams that they’re pissed at you… and implies that it’s all your fault.
If you’re at all emotionally invested in this person, you’re going to feel confused. You’re going to feel upset and a little anxious and want to make things better. You’re much more likely to try to do whatever it takes to melt that ice that’s suddenly developed between you.
Now imagine that applied to sex.
I want to be clear: this sort of “yes”, a “yes” gained through coercive methods does not count. This runs counter to the entire idea of affirmative, enthusiastic consent. It’s not a true, enthusiastic “yes”, it’s just a way of manipulating someone so that – once again – you’re just avoiding a “no”.
Similarly, a “yes” under the influence of alcohol is not the same. A “yes” after a night of drinking could be that he or she really wants to bone… or it could be they don’t but would be more likely to give in or have sex anyway even though they don’t really want to. Like I said earlier: booze doesn’t make emotions appear from nowhere, it just lowers inhibitions and impairs decision making. Someone who really wants to have sex with you while drunk will still want to have sex with you later. Someone who doesn’t want to but will anyway is someone you shouldn’t be having sex with in the first place.
Rule of thumb: too drunk to drive is too drunk to consent. You can wait until he or she is sober.
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Communicate! Communicate! Communicate!
Having just put the emphasis on enthusiasm, I want to make a point or two that inevitably arises whenever the subject of enthusiastic consent comes up. One frequent issue in relationships – especially long term relationships – is the idea of sex when one or the other partner isn’t terribly in the mood but is willing to go for it anyway. Passion does fade; when the relationship is still in the honeymoon phase, you frequently can’t breathe without both of you wanting to bang right then and there, but as time passes, there will be plenty of occasions when one’s libido isn’t 100% in tune with one’s partner. Many a person will frequently have sex – or some form of sexual contact – when he or she isn’t absolutely in the mood and their partner is.
It can be intimidating, especially for guys, to take ownership of their feelings about sex, especially if they don’t want to have it. Many men feel that they have to have sex, even when they’re not comfortable with it, because they’re men and that’s what men do so they have to suck it up. There will be times that men will feel pressured, even coerced, just as women do.
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Some will question whether this does or does not meet the level of “enthusiastic consent”. In the strictest definition: no, not really. But in a long-term relationship, one presumably, hopefully has lines of communication wide open. People in a long-term relationship will often have long established occasions where consent can be assumed and the understanding that there will be times that they are willing to be giving for the sake of the person whom they love and want to be happy… even if they’d rather be catching up on Game of Thrones and Facebook. As long as they are able to talk about what they are and aren’t willing to do, establish boundaries, and aren’t pressuring one another to act in a way they aren’t comfortable with, or engage in acts that they would rather not perform, I’d say that this is fine.
Communication is always key. Consent is not just about what you aren’t willing to do, it’s about being willing to talk, to communicate openly and without reservation with your partner about how they feel and how you feel. It can be intimidating, especially for guys, to take ownership of their feelings about sex, especially if they don’t want to have it. Many men feel that they have to have sex, even when they’re not comfortable with it, because they’re men and that’s what men do so they have to suck it up. There will be times that men will feel pressured, even coerced, just as women do. There have been times where I’ve felt pressured into sex that I didn’t want, yet went ahead and had anyway… at the time I didn’t feel that I could communicate with my then-girlfriend and just went along with what she wanted in order to avoid the fight that would have occurred otherwise. And I know I’m not the only man who’s had experiences like this.
Being able to communicate with one’s partner, to know that one’s limits and wants will be respected, is key to enthusiastic consent.
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The Benefits of Enthusiastic Consent
Part of rape culture is a culture that makes excuses for – even tacitly approves of rape. It’s a culture in which the victim is blamed for his or her own assault because “she got drunk” or “she should have known better” or “she didn’t say ‘no’ clearly enough”. It’s a culture in which consent is thought to be a tricky thing, and in which people complain of “mixed messages” and flirting, acting in a sexual manner, dressing provocatively or even having a drink is often portrayed as tacit consent.
It’s a culture where gender roles are strictly defined; men are the hypermasculine aggressors who are expected to be insatiable and perpetually aroused while women are valued only for how much sex they haven’t had yet and how dearly they parcel it out. It’s a culture wherein men aren’t allowed to have doubts or uncertainties about sex or even moments where they don’t want to have it; men who are less than insatiable are “pussies”. Meanwhile women are scorned for taking ownership of their sexuality, devalued or insulted for not restricting access to sex; in rape culture, one’s sexual history makes the difference between a victim and someone who was “asking for it”, who in effect deserved to be raped because she didn’t guard it strongly enough.
Enthusiastic, affirmative consent helps strip this away. It removes the excuses that rapists and rape apologists hide behind. It doesn’t matter that she was drunk or being flirty or even gave some guy a lap-dance at a bar because consent is about saying an explicit “Yes, I want you to fuck me” not about whether she’s a cocktease or made him think that she was OK with it without saying the words. It transforms sex from the gatekeeper model where men try to bribe or bargain with women in order to get off, to one of explict partnership, where sex isn’t about transaction but collaboration and building something amazing together. It helps create a culture of understanding and – more importantly – safety, where women can feel fewer restrictions on their own sexual expression and are freer to enjoy the sex they want, too.
It’s about open communication with your partner, learning how to express how you feel, checking in with them about their pleasure and being a better, more attentive lover.
But more importantly, it’s hot.
Enthusiastic consent isn’t about a call and response for every step of the way; it’s not “may I touch you here? May I kiss you now? May I undo your bra?” It’s about dirty talk; grabbing your lover by the back of the head and growling “I want you inside me now.” It’s about saying all the nasty, dirty things you want to do to them and hearing “Oh GOD yes…”. It’s hearing “Yes, like that” or “Here, touch me here!”
There aren’t mixed messages when it comes to enthusiastic consent. In a world where an explicit, enthusiastic “yes” is the threshold of consent, you know damn good and well that your partner is really excited to be having sex with you.
And really, isn’t that what we all want?
Originally appeared at Paging Dr. NerdLove
Since women tend to be more risk-averse than men, and communicating openly about sex is taking a risk, isn’t this kind of “preaching to the choir”? As KKZ said above, women need to be more assertive in general for this model of consent to work. I know this is a men’s site, so it talks to their perspective, but how many men have this experience in real life? FlyingKal, atleast, has found otherwise. It seems that in real life there’s as much “Schrodinger’s consent” as there is “Schrodinger’s rapist”. Men have been hearing for decades that they have to keep… Read more »
Hi Daniel
You say:
✺”there’s a long-standing trend of flirtation that basically revolves around mixed
messaging, and nothing happens if the initiator doesn’t continue anyway.”✺
Why not look at it as a reciprocal activity, between equal partners like playing ping pong.
If she never responds and never kick the pinball ball back over to you, maybe she does not want to play with you?
A totally passive non responding person, is that your experience with a partner, man or woman?
After all we are talking about adults.
It’s a bit old, but it establishes the longstanding trend I was referring to: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3379584
In my experience, most women do very little without strong initiation. Do the guess and check method, and hope a wrong guess doesn’t get an overreaction. Requiring your partner to take all te risks is not enthusiastic consent.
Hi Daniel
This does not sound good.
It is not easy to be a man in America. I hope you find a enthusiastic woman one day 🙂
In thirty five years of dating and being in relationships, I have never had a problem knowing quite clearly when someone doesn’t want to have sex. It is the lack of enthusiastic and aggressive consent. Doubtful consent is not a green light. And someone doubtfully proposing or doubtfully accepting a proposal of sex isn’t very appealing.
It’s disturbing and tragic that some people (men or women) SAY they can’t tell when someone is saying no. They actually know, they just what they want and they don’t care who gets hurt in the process.
@ Mark Greene I bought my first property when I was 18. I’ve held power of attorney to sell a property for an uncle. I’ve been able to write professional business letters and read contracts since I was about 13. I could converse with lawyers on a professional level since 18. Without any prior training in property management, I took a condo association which had $200 in the bank, $11,000 in debt, and looking at $3,000+ in emergency infrastructure improvements, and was only collecting on 33% of association fees after a professional management company botched things and in two years… Read more »
One thing that’s become clear for me in my personal life recently is that consent is not about permission so much as agreement. This was a big “a-ha” for me because as a female, the message I got growing up was very much centered on permission (and specifically, NOT giving it), and that led to some unfortunate behavior down the line, where I felt so conflicted between ‘pleasing my partner’ and ‘honoring my own needs’ that I gave Bad Consent over and over and over. Permission without agreement. I allowed sex to happen, but was only participating in a perfunctory… Read more »
Thanks for sharing KKZ. Much appreciated. It really moved me. I was in a relationship for several years. We were both in our 30’s so we weren’t exactly “young and flimsy” any of us. The love-making was pretty goood in the beginning, but soon started to get one-handed (*Ba-ding*…), with the expectations on me to take the initiative and always do it with what was the right way of the day. She would sometimes “admit”, out of nowhere, that “Yesterday I was really hot for you, but you didn’t ask so I didn’t say anything.”! I TRIED, for 5 years,… Read more »
Hi Kal, All I can say to your example is, communication is definitely a two-way street. “Do you want” only works when both people are practicing it and believe in it. It sounds to me like you two were part of the way there, making some effort towards it, but maybe not 100%. Maybe you were making the effort to ask, and she appreciated it, but wasn’t putting similar effort into telling/asking anything herself, or wasn’t comfortable with that for some reason. Just speculating here. Just like anything else, I have found this takes practice. In my relationship, we can… Read more »
Hi KKZ, I really love your answer! Thank you for putting in the work and communication to improve your relationship and making the world a better place, at least for you and your partner. I’m sure you’re both at a better place for it. This is where I failed. I couldn’t get her to engage in the communication, couldn’t get her to see the benefits, the potential in it. In the beginning, it was “Ok, let’s try”, but without enthusiasm. Then later on it just became “This is who I am and I won’t even try to change.” Part of… Read more »
Sorry I forgot one thing. So, everyone knows about the Golden Rule, yeah? Treat others how you’d wish to be treated. No on talks about how this can backfire, though. Because this is how I saw it when I was in your former partner’s position: “Hmm, I’m kinda in the mood for sex, but he’s (busy, sleeping, watching TV, in a bad mood, etc.). I know *I* don’t like being approached for sex under those circumstances. So out of respect, I won’t approach him.” Well, if you were only in this kind of mood when your partner was actually busy… Read more »
Yes!
Imagine if you will, that you’re hanging out with someone you care about; everything’s happy, you’re having fun. You’re having incredible conversations, the kind where you feel like you’re communicating on the deepest levels… and then you do something innocuous and it all turns off like a light. Now all that warmth has gone. You’re getting short, curt, single syllable answers, they refuse to look at you. They insist that nothing’s wrong, but everything about the way they’re acting screams that they’re pissed at you… and implies that it’s all your fault. Sure, but it’s not like this kind of… Read more »
If it’s a gal getting treated like that in my circles the peanut gallery says the same thing. Or something along the lines of “RED FLAG! RUN!!!!!”
Yes, Veronica.
So, why aren’t we discussing this subject or article along the same line of reasoning?
😉
You are(o;
I didn’t mean “we” as in you and I, but the article and comments in general. 🙂
I can understand why you’d say this (and I bet you’ve experienced it first hand). And if she gives a horrendous answer that’s a sign that she is probably going to wait on you to make all the moves even when she wants to engage in something. And honestly speaking I’m not sure how interesting it would be to be with a woman that just sits back waiting for the guy to make the first move all the time. The last paragraph is my thoughts exactly. And I have had women who answered “no”, “not now”, “we shouldn’t”, “I can’t”… Read more »
“Given enthusiastic consent the onus is on women (and of course also men where applicable) who wants to have sex to voice their wants. If women are unable to step up to the plate and do this they shouldn’t get laid.” YES! Drives me nuts the arguments about “but women play hard to get” well don’t play with those women then. If a woman says no, or does not affirmatively say yes to spending time, to a kiss, to a date, to sex then let it go. If she’s playing games then you won’t be making them work for her… Read more »
“If a woman says no, or does not affirmatively say yes to spending time, to a kiss, to a date, to sex then let it go. If she’s playing games then you won’t be making them work for her and you won’t end up with a woman who plays games. If she’s not playing games you won’t be taking advantage of her or making her uncomfortable if she is just trying to be non confrontational but has no interest.” Based on my experience you are talking about at least h80% if not more of all women. And generally they are… Read more »
I think the issue of socialization comes into play here. If many women have trouble vocalizing their wants because they have been socialized not to, men are still going to determine whether a woman wants to have sex or not. Just focusing on woman who can vocalize this might really limit the number of available women.
My unwillingness to be a thief has limited the amount of available money in my life. That doesn’t make it ok to steal.
What’s right is right even when it’s more difficult. The questions becomes what kind of man do you want to be? What kind of relationships do you want? and are those things more important than how much you get laid?
You live in a country where few people are thieves. If you lived in a country or at a time when it was necessary to be a thief to survive your attitude would be very very very different. For instance if you live in Cuba right now you might have a very difficult time not being a thief. Cubans make less than $1 a day. The same is true if you lived in Mao’s China or Stalin’s Russia. People who refused to steal were the people who starved to death. We do live in a world where the vast majority… Read more »
You have a better than deserved view of the US if you think few people are thieves.
So, did you seriously just give me the “but I need sex to survive” argument?
I agree, it should be equal who makes the invitations. I not only believe that but I live it. I made all of the initial invitations to my now husband and many to the men I’ve been attracted to in the past. If I wasn’t saying I was interested it was because I wasn’t or I was not ready to do anything about it at that point.
“So, did you seriously just give me the “but I need sex to survive” argument?”
No I gave you a you won’t freaking get laid if you don’t initiate argument. But its more than getting laid. Its marriage, a relationship, falling in love, having children, not being alone. The best part of life. Sex is pretty integral to all of that. You are asking these guys to give that up and be a lone for most of their lives. For what purpose exactly?
If it’s more than getting laid then your argument makes even less sense. The more you bring in the importance of the people as people instead of a hole you want to grab access to before it realizes what you’re doing than the more it works for the one who is waiting for enthusiastic consent. Ignoring consent is not how to find a healthy happy person who feels safe and wants to fall in love and get married. I also don’t buy for one minute that waiting for someone who actually wants to have sex with you is going to… Read more »
“Ignoring consent is not how to find a healthy happy person who feels safe and wants to fall in love and get married.” My last girlfriend was happy, felt safe with me, fell in love and wanted to get married. I didn’t want marriage..wasn’t ready. That relationship was fantastic and i never once asked her for sex or waited for her to want it. I took her when I wanted it and she was always wet and always willing. It was easy and like a dream. I led and she followed. Enthusiastic consent is irrelevant. All I need is desire… Read more »
Hi Assman
Are you saying she proposed to you?
The woman that never knew what she wanted,and never asked and never said no, she had the guts to propose to you.
( one day you will regret it )
‘I took her when I wanted it and she was always wet and always willing. It was easy and like a dream. I led and she followed.’ That doesn’t sound like a relationship, it sounds like it’s all about you. take what you what. when you want, like she is some blowup doll. She may have been a completely passive person but just because she went along with it, doesn’t mean you have to treat her like a brain dead moron and not even bother to check with her if it is ok. You are not some higher being that… Read more »
“I took her when I wanted it”
Should tell everyone what they need to know about the person writing this comment.
I don’t dig it. I don’t even understand it. Look at this scene from the show Chuck: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuFJYH7m9Co Obviously the participants are extremely enthusiastic but there is NO enthusiastic consent anywhere in the scene. Its typical. Other than the music this kind of thing happens all the time and involves no words. The sex is good…maybe great. Because it involves no thinking. No critical analysis. And when you consider a person like Sarah in Chuck who is by nature not very talkative you can’t really understand how so-called enthusiastic consent could ever happen between them. 90% of the show consists… Read more »
“The worst possible thing i could do at this point is ask her “Do you want X”. And if you ask you are bound to get a horrendous answer. The best thing is to just go for it.”
All I can assume is that you are trolling with that description to see who you can upset and anger. I hope that is the case anyway, the alternative is far more disturbing.
What alternative?
Hi Assman You write: ✺”The worst possible thing i could do at this point is ask her “Do you want X”. And if you ask you are bound to get a horrendous answer. The best thing is to just go for it.”✺ Can you explain to us all why the worst possible thing you can do is to ask? And what kind of horrendous answer do you expect? My guess is that you Assman ,never asked. You only push and take,like a man that live according to PUA teachings instead of using his own intelligence and insight. When I earlier… Read more »
I live in Canada.
“My guess is that you Assman ,never asked. You only push and take,like a man that live according to PUA teachings instead of using his own intelligence and insight.”
My relationships with women can only be described as dream like. They weren’t good…they were great. And yes I take. That is exactly the way I view it. And to me the best way to view it. But the women were always extremely happy and so was I. It worked. I have seen many more “communicative” relationships that don’t work like this.
Hi Assman
Thank you.
“Can you explain to us all why the worst possible thing you can do is to ask? And what kind of horrendous answer do you expect?” Sure its the worst possible thing for two reasons: 1) its useless. She will never tell you yes even if she wants it. 2) Its counterproductive. Many women are looking for the guy to make the move. This turns them on. You asking turns them off. Its shows that you are unsure of what you are doing. What type of horrendous answers do I expect. The completely useless ones…silence, No (even when they mean… Read more »
Hi Assman You write: ✺”1) its useless. She will never tell you yes even if she wants it”… What type of horrendous answers do I expect. The completely useless ones…silence, No (even when they mean yes) and confusion. You never get a good answer to the question and so there is absolutely no point in asking.” ✺ I have asked you this before and I ask again Assman. What is the ethnic background of the women you date and yourself? I am convinced your family background is NOT Canadian. I would understand your story they come from a different culture… Read more »
‘Women are no different’
WRONG. There is a difference between a bunch of sheep customers and an individual woman. There is something wrong with you if you can’t treat a woman as an individual
Half of those sheep customers are women. I would think treating women as individuals would involve acknowledging that some are up for a frank discussion and others would prefer assman’s approach.
1) its useless. She will never tell you yes even if she wants it. That, above, is absolutely what fuels some rapists to rape. Go look at Project Unbreakable. Realize how many people are holding signs saying, “You’re saying ‘No’ but I know you mean yes.” or “I know you really want it, you’re just afraid to say it.” That’s been said to me, to so many of my friends who’ve been sexually assaulted. And it’s 100% rape-apologistic bullshit to say that she won’t say “yes” even if she wants it. Maybe she just doesn’t want it with YOU. And… Read more »
Hi Joanna
Thank you for saying what everybody else think:
✺ “And if you believe that women say “no” when they mean “yes” I would talk to a therapist immediately and get some serious help before you harm somebody.”✺
Assman needs help.
I agree……
I have been with several women, and I never had any problems in understanding the signals if there ever was any. Most of the time they are straightforward, time to time there is one who signals. Usually its from the eyes, from the way the stare you. Caress her, if her body pulls back or she say no. Stop. Pull back apologize and carry on with the conversation. Not that hard.
@ Joanna I mostly agree. I don’t think women never say no when they really want it, but I don’t think any man should ever interpret it differently. Some women want to “be a good girl” like when this guy asked his girlfriend what she wanted for Valentine’s Day or some event. She responded that she didn’t want anything. He didn’t buy her anything and she threw a fit. He had to buy her like $1,000 worth of stuff to make up for it. The difference being that no one would’ve been hurt if he bought her a gift she… Read more »
That’s exactly right, John. And that girl is a moron for saying “no” to presents when she wanted presents. But the worst-case scenario here is that she didn’t get presents (or got them). When we don’t listen to a woman’s “no” or “I don’t know” or anything other than “Yes!” we risk rape. And it’s just not equivalent to anything like saying “no” to liking hoagies because it seems unladylike or something. And same goes for men. We have a HUGE problem in our society where we make it seem like men always want sex, with anyone, any time, no… Read more »
There is this way she looks at me that is difficult to describe but it is like she is waiting for something or expecting something. Generally she is looking for me to make the move and I know that she will follow me. When my current girlfriend and I were first dating she had this attitude about our first kiss. She was quite literally waiting for me to make the first move. When she finally spoke up she asked me why hadn’t I kissed her yet and I responded by asking why didn’t she make the first move. Unfortunately due… Read more »
Danny, I think, if you are approaching 30 and have never been really intimate with a woman, but have come close enough a couple of times just to have them walk out on you for posing the wrong question (like, “what do you want to do?”, “Do you want to do X?”, or “Does this feels good?”) with a smirk and a “Aren’t you supposed to know that…?”. I think that a woman who just sits back and waiting for you to do the moves, smiling non-resistance would be perfectly interesting as long as you’re not met with a resounding… Read more »
Your last paragraph is a good reason why being a late bloomer sucks.
Amen LeeEsq. Amen.
Your last paragraph is a good reason why being a late bloomer sucks.
Trick is, you just gotta ask her in the right way.
“What if I kissed you right now?”
That’s pretty romantic.
Which is basically playing a game. As long as you ask her the right way it will be fine. Obviously different women have different tastes the “the right way to ask” isn’t going to mean the same thing to every woman.
It still puts the guy in the “I hope I get this right” situation that assman mentioned.
People are always adjusting the way they say things to affect a certain outcome, in sexual and nonsexual situations, though. “Yo, wanna grab a bite?” “Let’s get dinner together” and “I’m starving, what are you in the mood for?” all convey the same intention – you, me, food, soon – but are useful in different contexts. So with that in mind, all communication requires a little game-playing, and there will always be occasions when the intention, the message, the context and the recipient don’t line up the way we might predict, or when someone breaks or changes the rules. Why… Read more »
So with that in mind, all communication requires a little game-playing, and there will always be occasions when the intention, the message, the context and the recipient don’t line up the way we might predict, or when someone breaks or changes the rules. Why would sex be any different? To me its not that I think sex would be different its more like I think there seems to be a different set of standards when it comes to sex. In your example about grabbing dinner if the intention/message/context/recipient don’t line up chances are dinner will still happen. On the other… Read more »
And to follow up:
When it comes to sex and communication, the onus is squarely on BOTH PEOPLE to be forthcoming, to make an effort, and to listen. Maybe the balance tips a little more towards the initiator than the recipient in specific situations, but seriously, any woman who thinks responsible sexual communication is the man’s job alone, and all she has to do is say Yes or No, is a lousy lover with a lot to learn. (Reverse the genders and it still applies.)
Very much agreed. ….but seriously, any woman who thinks responsible sexual communication is the man’s job alone, and all she has to do is say Yes or No, is a lousy lover with a lot to learn. (Reverse the genders and it still applies.) This is what I was getting at with assman earlier about the “horrendous” answer. Communication is already hard enough when both people know what they want so I don’t think it does much good to have people who intentionally mess up the lines of communication for personal pleasure (not to be confused with people who may… Read more »
@KKZ – I think you’ve hit upon it right there- there’s a lot more to genuine communication than reading a script and filling in the blanks. Moreover, I think a case could be made to argue that consent may not always take the form of a verbal communication; but consent (however it’s communicated) is still consent, and decline is still decline. Communication needs to be mutual (though, not necessarily verbal and only verbal) and effective, whatever form it takes.
@ KKZ
I agree. People should communicate to their partner what they want or don’t want.
Ok I’m starting to hog the comment section now so I’ll step away after this, but to support Joanna’s point; Not all, but most, women will interpret these two sentences very differently: “Can I get a blowjob?” vs. “Do you want to blow me?” The first was my partner’s default way of asking for my consent for a long time. And it icks me out, because it turns the act into this transactional thing that has NOTHING to do with my own desire and proclivity to engage in it. It sets up a permission-based model for consent. I can say… Read more »
I do appreciate the break down you give here. It gives some insight into what some women are thinking.
However as I said above “the right way” is different for different folks.
(Im not trying to give you a hard time I’m just trying to trying to express how mixed up this can all be.)
All of your points are very fair. Another woman might not even blink at “Can I get a blowjob” – that’s very much tied to my sexual history and my personality. To the point of “Screwing up a dinner invite means dinner is probably still on, not so with sex” <– My hope would be that we as individuals and collectively could get to the point where being declined for sex is no more damaging or tragic or traumatic than someone saying "No thanks, I'm not hungry." Idealistic, I know. Sex is a WAY more vulnerable area to be making… Read more »
Yeah, you have to learn what’s right with people. I mean, it’s not unlike seeing if a bunch of guys want to come over for a game of poker, to watch football or some other masculine activity, haha. IE “Hey want to come sit next to me on a couch and stare at a TV and cheer together?” might sound weird, but somewhere around 8th grade you probably figured out the right way to invite someone to hang out. It’s the same with women. You just figure it out. We all had to, with guys or girls or both. And… Read more »
@Joanna:
Trick is, you just gotta ask her in the right way.
“What if I kissed you right now?”
Question is, if you really want the guy anyway, what do you as a woman get out of saying no just because he asked the wrong way?
One wrong word or move, that’s not in any way remotely malign, and you are turned off, just like that?
Yeah, you have to learn what’s right with people.
It’s just that “what’s right with people” is different, and in most cases you only get one chance with each to get it right.
What I’d like to see is a world where people can hear NO and not go into convulsions about all the possible implicit meanings. But that’s basically asking for a world with no hope and no disappointment, so I’m not holding my breath. And won’t be all that bummed if it doesn’t happen. (See how that works? 😉 ) I don’t think we’d need to get rid of hope and disappointment themselves. All we’d need to do is get rid of the (mostly gendered) expectations that come with dating and sex. If a guy that’s asking a woman out wasn’t… Read more »
Hi KKZ
I agree with you. Well said when you explain how you feel about these two different questions:
“Not all, but most, women will interpret these two sentences very differently:
“Can I get a blowjob?”
vs.
“Do you want to blow me?””
“What if I kissed you right now?” Tried that. It doesn’t work. I would say 80% of the time you get silence. Occassionally you get a question like “Are you a good kisser?”. Many times you will get a firm “No”. But regardless you will almost never ever get a yes. The best best you will ever get in the vast majority of cases is silence which is almost always a go ahead signal. Here is a typical example. I was in a car with a girl on a date. I knew it was going well and was incredibly confident.… Read more »
It would be great to hear, “Yes I do want to blow you!” But I’ve gotten the same message from many women… that it’s better to ask for forgiveness than permission. I don’t mean that in a gross way, just to say that they seem to prefer to proceed non-verbally. The body language is very clear. And certainly, I respect any verbal or non-verbal stop signs they present. I think there’s a vulnerability to wanting and expressing verbally those wants that makes many people uncomfortable. In sex, as in dating, men are often left to initiate and women accept or… Read more »
I think that it’s unfortunately true that many people – especially women, but men as well – don’t feel comfortable verbalizing what they want because that does make them feel vulnerable. At the same time, I think that it’s important to acknowledge that people aren’t just suspended in that state of discomfort forever – if you make them feel comfortable, and you verbalize what you want, they tend to start to feel a lot better doing the same thing. That said, I’m not saying that verbal consent is necessary for everything sexual, ever – body language can be pretty damn… Read more »
I’ve had guys say the same thing to me, and it’s worked amazingly.
Depends on the guy – it worked for Harris (who wrote this) to ask for consent, and it works for a TON of people.
But, see my other comment, the fact that you think that women will never say “yes” even when they mean it shows some really serious, deep problems, in my mind.
To you and many other women yes. Other women might view verbal communication like this as a serious mood killer even though they could appreciate the sentiment behind it. People are weird like that.
Exactly! I have never understood why anyone would have any interest in having sex with someone who was not enthusiastic about it. It would feel icky to think the other person was not into it.
Maybe I can help with that a bit. I think there is something to be said for a good sexual encounter happens with spontaneity. Like a “__ knows it, __ knows it, no need for words.” The problem is when people aren’t looking out for signs and are just projecting their own desires and passing them off as knowing what they want. (On a side note if you look at the lyrics of that Robin Thicke song. I know there are some posts floating around about how his words are words that rapists have said to their victims. Well at… Read more »
I think the big difference there is do you know the person well enough to know without words? I think what you said can be very true in an established relationship, even if what has been established is purely sexual. But if you don’t have that established then it’s time to remember we are all awful mind readers. (I think I’ll just back slowly away from the song debate because I think it’s the flavor of the minute and too easy to get caught up in semantics rather than the bigger picture, and frankly the song makes me ill(or maybe… Read more »
But if you don’t have that established then it’s time to remember we are all awful mind readers.
I can agree to that. I think that for whatever reason in situations where there is no established relationship there is still a desire for that spontaneity because it is believed that that spontaneity adds to the passion of the moment.
@ Danny It’s more than that. There is a difference between someone saying no and someone saying alright. In a relationship, there will always be times one partner is not enthusiastic about what the other one wants to do. I don’t like dancing. I don’t enjoy “chick flicks”, but guess what I’m doing every once in a while. Familiarity isn’t just knowing when a person is enthusiastic about something. It’s also knowing when a person is OK with something and just what they’re OK with. I remember there was a comment on this site by a woman who said she… Read more »
I said “a bit” for a reason.
I think that when many people find the word enthusiastic intimidating and are imagining a sort of passion that really only exists in fiction and something that just aren;t capable of bringing out in a partner.
That is the most depressing thing I’ve heard today. If someone really feels like no one could want them enthusiastically there is something wrong.
When many people hear the word enthusiasm they imagine something outside a movie with a lot of flashy display. Real life isn’t like this for the most part, so they can’t imagine what enthusiastic consent would look or sound like in real life.
Think of how sad that is. That people have been so overwhelmed by tv and movies that real joy and enthusiasm don’t register. Is that what you’re saying is happening?
I still don’t really get how that could be true. I mean I get that this happens with ideas like “true love” and “great passion” and all kinds of things that screw up people with plastic unrealistic expectations, but enthusiasm? People are so jaded they can’t tell the difference between someone who is happy to be having sex with them and someone who is somewhere between bored and unwilling?
A bit yes. Its not so much that people are jaded as much as they are daunted and are probably over thinking it.
Veronica, Personally, I think the problem is more that people (men AND women) are bad at putting words to their feelings and expectations, and not so much of not being able to tell the difference between happy and boring. (Perhaps that people are so jaded that we don’t expect enthusiasm until we’re in the middle of it…) We as a society are still far too happy playing the “If you don’t know what’s wrong, I sure as h@ll ain’t gonna tell you!”-game. And at the same time there’s craploads of guys out there receiving messages from articles like this, eagerly… Read more »
I think one of the most effective ways to get that enthusiasm is to not engage without it. There is fear of rejection on both sides. Men generally end up having to risk the rejection to make a move and women risk rejection by showing they are interested. There are stereotypes about clingy women all over the place that make women worry about how much interest they show. Also showing interest when you aren’t interested in “going all the way” can end in awkwardness or harassment. So two things I’m thinking are that if we start waiting for enthusiasm we… Read more »
I think what previous commenters were trying to get at is, this idea of “enthusiasm” comes with connotations of high excitement and energy, like the way sports fans are enthusiastic for their team to win. When really, enthusiastic consent can sound like “yes please, I’d like that” or “HELL YES DO ME NOW!” And I think what other commenters are saying is that this idea of enthusiastic consent makes them think that only the HELL YES level of enthusiasm counts, and if the woman displays anything less than that, then they’re still in the “caution” zone. It’s more a matter… Read more »
I have to say that at least the firs time I’m with someone I very much expect there to be high excitement. There have been many “yes please, I’d like that”s in my long term relationships but if both my potential partner and I aren’t at “Hell Yes!” the first time, it’s not going to work for me. That doesn’t mean other people can’t enjoy their first time “Yes please” events, it just means I can’t relate to that. You make a really excellent point of the misconceptions on both sides. I have certainly declined kisses or back rubs because… Read more »
geez… not all men are like that Veronica. Just because some men online said that doesnt mean all guys are like that. As a guy, I dont want sex, I only want relationship. And getting that relationship still hard as fuck because we are the one need to initiate.
I dont understand cock tease. I dont know about that. I dont want to rape anyone. Heck I only want love in my life. Thats all.
@ John I absolutely know that most men are not like that. I know all kinds of awesome good men. I’ve been blessed to know good men my whole life. That is probably why it was such a shock. I can tell you that the experience of finding out that some men felt that way did make me much more careful with men I did not know extremely well. I said no to dates, back rubs and other activities unless I knew the man very well from then on. I’m more comfortable in the friend range anyway, but I’m sure… Read more »
@Veronica Grace:
So two things I’m thinking are that if we start waiting for enthusiasm we will allow the space for that and also make it necessary.
And I think that guys waiting for enthusiasm while a (vast?) majority of women still think that a guy not moving forward means he’s not interested in her, is just going nowhere real fast.
….enthusiastic consent is important not only for rape prevention, but also because it facilitates really, really great sex.
I can dig it.
🙂