*Further original, internal sources are at the bottom of the article.*
*The interview conducted April 6, 2024.*
Remus Cernea is a humanist philosopher and former member of the Romanian Parliament (2012-2016) with a green progressive agenda. He also served as an advisor to the Prime Minister (2012) on environmental issues. He held the position of Executive Director of the first secular humanist NGO in Romania, Solidarity for Freedom of Conscience (2003-2008). He was the founder and first President of the Romanian Humanist Association (2008-2012). Since June 2022, he has been working as a war correspondent in Ukraine for Newsweek Romania. In 2004-2005, Remus Cernea successfully halted the construction of the giant Orthodox Cathedral in a historic park in Bucharest (Carol Park). During his time as a member of parliament, he advocated for various humanist causes, such as introducing Ethics into the curriculum, stop using the public funding for the construction of giant cathedrals, ending religious indoctrination in schools, allocating more funds for scientific research, legally recognizing civil partnerships, ceasing the use of religious symbols in electoral campaigns, and repealing the “blasphemy law,” among others. He also achieved significant accomplishments, including the liberation of animals in circuses and the strengthening of laws for the protection of domestic violence victims. Here we talk about the Russo-Ukrainian war in early 2024.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, welcome back, as our fourth interview with Remus Cernea, a Romanian former member of parliament and an independent war correspondent and one of the co-founders of Humanism in Romania. In our first interview, I was still working at an Olympic-level equestrian facility. [Ed. The first was in Copenhagen at the World Humanist Congress and General Assembly after giving one of the keynote speeches, so the one referenced was the second.] You were doing work in Zaporizhzhia. The (third) interview, I believe I was then in Ukraine with us during our 2-week trip. We were in Dnipro looking at one bombed residential building. Continuing from this series of interviews, I see you plan to travel again in May. We traveled from November 22 to December 6, 2023. What other trips have you taken to war zones? What updates can you give us about the general contexts of war now?
Remus Cernea: I was in Israel near Gaza in December and January. Then, I was in Ukraine again for 23 days, from February to March. It was a tough experience in Israel. I had been under three Hamas bombings and three Hamas missile attacks. Two of them are in the city of Ashkelon. One of them is in Tel Aviv. I couldn’t go inside Gaza because it is difficult for a foreign journalist to go there. Actually, it is very rare to have journalists inside Gaza coming from Israel. But I filmed the smoke of one of the explosions in Gaza. I saw the smoke. Because the smoke was very strong and very high, I filmed it in Gaza. I filmed some places that were hit by Hamas missiles, the city of Sderot, which is one kilometre away from Gaza and the city of Ashkelon, which is about 10 or 12 kilometres from Gaza. I tried to go to some kibbutzes that were hit or under the Hamas attack on October 7. But those places were military – not allowed to go there. But I spoke with a lot of people. I have seen a lot of very, very interesting things and dramatic things. It is a huge tragedy that is happening there. The Hamas attack was a huge, horrible attack. But also, unfortunately, as we see in Gaza, there is also a lot of suffering for civilians. I support the idea that Israel has to destroy Hamas because, otherwise, it is impossible to live under the permanent threat of terrorist attacks from Hamas. At the same time, of course, we see some footage and clips of what is happening in Gaza. Of course, we are very deeply touched by the tragedy that is happening there. Recently, people from the international organization World Central Kitchen were killed. I met people from World Central Kitchen in Ukraine. Every time there is a place that is hit by Russian missiles. These people are coming there and bringing food to the people in need.
So, I know people from World Central Kitchen. I was very sad to find that some of them were those 7 or 8 people killed in Gaza. I hope that Israel will do more to prevent these kinds of tragedies. Then I have been to Ukraine. This time, I have been to Kyiv, Kharkiv, Zaporizhzhia, Kryvyi Rih, and Odesa. I witnessed Russian attacks on residential buildings with no military targets around. Unfortunately, it was a huge tragedy in Kryvyi Rih on March 12. A missile hit a residential building, and five civilians were killed, and 49 were injured. Among the dead were children; there were also ten children wounded. I have been inside the building two days later. There was still the smell. The smell… because it was a huge fire. That smell of fire and death is impossible to forget. So, it will haunt all of my life. Then I went to Odesa when there was an attack. The attack on Odesa was very cynical. Why? Because the Russians hit a place with a missile sent from Crimea. A missile from Crimea to Odesa. It takes about 2 or 3 minutes to hit the target because it is quite close, Crimea to Odesa. The Russians hit a place. There were some casualties. The Russians waited for 20 minutes and waited to hit the same place again. But what happened in those 20 minutes? The rescuers, doctors, paramedics, and firefighters came to that place to help. The second missile killed more people, the doctors, firefighters, and rescuers. As we have seen in the last weeks, the Russians are using this kind of attack. They are called ‘tap-tap’ attacks. Because it is tap 1, and 10 or 15 minutes later, it is tap 2. Usually, the second hit kills more people and wounds more people. In Odesa, there were 21 people killed. More than 70 were wounded. Most of them were because of the second hit, the second missile. So, it was a huge tragedy also there.
Odesa is attacked more intensely and intensively. Which is the correct?
Jacobsen: Intensely or intensively would work.
Cernea: Intensively, okay, in the last months. Also, Kharkiv is another place hit by Russisns very, very often. In the last few days, they have destroyed electrical power supplies. The city is now… they have more than 90% of the electrical facilities destroyed. They destroyed the dam in Zaporizhzhia. It is obvious that the Russians are now targeting the electrical power supply. There are some voices that speak about a new offensive of the Russians, maybe in May, maybe in June. But these kinds of attacks are a kind of prelude for this offensive. I have been to the frontlines in the Kupiansk district. Kupiansk is a city near the frontlines in the Northeastern part of Ukraine. I spoke with the military there. I felt how the ground was shaking because of the shelling. There were explosions, many explosions every minute. I filmed there. I did some interviews with soldiers. I filmed how they responded with the artillery to the Russian shelling. It is a duel. It is a duel between artilleries. In this duel, drones are very important because they have drones. Ukrainians have drones. Russians have drones. They try to monotorize [sic] the enemies. When they see where the enemies are, where there are trenches or armoured vehicles or something like that, They send the coordinates to the artillery, and then they execute fire in that place. It is a constant duel between both sides with artillery. I heard while I was in the trenches; the sound of that kind of bomb used mainly by Russians, but also by Ukrainians. I also heard the Russian because it was close. Let me find the word in English in just a second. Clusterbombs!
Jacobsen: Yes.
Cernea: Clusterbombs, I recorded them and heard them. The soldiers told me the Russians have been using them intensively in recent weeks. In these cluster bombs, you can hear boom-boom-boom-boom-boom while the ordinary sound of a shell, of a Russian shell, is like boom. But when you heard boom-boom-boom-boom, many explosions, this means cluster bombs. They are very destructive, very destructive and very dangerous for the Ukrainian lines. I also spoke with the Ukrainian drone…
Jacobsen: Operator?
Cernea: The people who manipulate the drones.
Jacobsen: Yes.
Cernea: Help me out.
Jacobsen: The drone operators.
Cernea: Yes, I saw their monitors and screens. They are monitoring every movement of the Russians. When they find some Russians, they send drones to hit them. They said, “Look what we are doing, the Russians are doing the same.” So, it is a constant duel between both sides. I also asked them about munitions. They told me that they did not have enough ammunition. They have to use it carefully. The ratio is 5 to 1 or 7 to 1 in favour of the Russians. The Ukrainians try to compensate with precision. “Okay, the Russians have more, use more shells. But we try to be more precise and hit them hard in order to balance this disproportionate ratio. Russians have more shells at this time. I hope that the Americans will vote in Congress for this supporting aid of Ukraine of more than 6o million US dollars. Without it, Ukraine would have a very hard time in the next months. If the Americans finally vote for it, it will be a huge help, of huge importance, because, mainly, if the Russians will attack again on a large scale in May or June this year.
Jacobsen: What were some of the other takeaways that you had in your 23-day newer trip to Ukraine compared to some of the other trips that you have taken?
Cernea: At every corner, there is a story, as you know. At every corner of Ukraine, you can find a story. What I see now is that the morale of the Ukrainians is still high, but they’re quite frustrated; it is hard for them to understand why the Western aid is not coming as they hoped – as they need.
Jacobsen: Has NATO made its commitments? An attack on one is an attack on all. However, they are not fully a part of it.
Cernea: Can you repeat the first phrase?
Jacobsen: NATO is based on this premise of an attack on one is an attack on all. So, your support, obviously not a formal membership; however, there has been a commitment by a lot of the Western developed nations that have capacity to help out Ukraine. So, I can understand, certainly, why Ukrainians at present, even with a high level of morale, can retain a high level of frustration with many Western nations.
Cernea: Yes. The Ukrainians appreciate any help. They are grateful to all of those who supported Ukraine in every way. Militarily, financially, humanitarian, and so on, but at the same time, they see themselves as defenders of Ukraine and also defenders of Europe. Almost all of the Ukrainians I spoke with say, “We fight for our country, of course, but we also fight for Europe and for the civilized world because dictators like Putin cannot stop themselves.” Putin will never say to himself, “Hey Vladimir, let’s stop this bloodshed.” No, Putin will do anything he can to conquer as much land as he can, maybe to attack other countries or, maybe, to try to do as many bad things as he can to Ukraine. But in the mind of Ukrainians, they’re not only defenders of Ukraine. They are also defenders of Europe and the Western world. This may be why the frustration is bigger. It may be why they asked some people from Western countries or leaders from Western countries who do not understand the urgency of the needs the Ukrainians have on the frontlines because there were many speeches. “Wonderful Ukraine, we will help Ukraine,” and so on. “We will do what it takes,” and so on. But we see what is happening in the US. We see that even the European Union cannot yet provide the promised quantities of ammunition. So, this is very hard to understand for them. But they still resist. They still have a high morale. They, of course, do not accept to lose the war. This idea of losing the war is unacceptable, or to capitulate or something like that. No, the Ukrainians will fight, even in harsh conditions and even if the Western aid will decrease.
Jacobsen: So, with regards to the Ukrainian situation, were there any particular narratives or stories that you acquired simply talking to ordinary people, whether people who worked in hotels, who worked in the street, soldiers, that come to mind?
Cernea: I am always amazed by Ukrainians’ will to organize cultural events. Even in these harsh times, for instance, I have been to Kharkiv for a few concerts. An opera concert and a pop rock concert are two different events; they’re organizing them in bunkers because the whole of the opera house in Kharkiv, which is one of the biggest in Europe, is unusable. They cannot use it because it is a dangerous place. There is a danger of being hit by Russians. The Russians hit some buildings near the opera house. But in the bunkers, they still have this concept. I met their beautiful artist, a wonderful artist. For instance, the director of Carmen, the opera of Bizet. It is a classic composition, a classic opera. They play in the bunkers, Carmen of Bizet. The director told me that I had spoken with him there. He told me. “Yes, I was the director for many shows in Europe, in many European countries, but I decided to come back to Kharkiv and to offer my art and my skills as a director to the Ukrainians who want to come to such kind of shows. Yes, there is a need. There is a need there, even in these harsh conditions. Ukrainians want to organize concerts. It is a danger. It is a danger because you can hear air raid alarms. Sometimes, there are even explosions in the city. People can die, of course. They can die going to a place because it is even riskier when you are outside. When you are inside the building, you have a chance to be protected somehow. But if you are outside, and there is an explosion nearby, the risk is much, much higher. So, I was amazed by the will of Ukrainians in the city of Kharkiv to try to live a normal life, such as going to concerts.
There are some restaurants. They are still open. There is a dynamic of the city. The city is not dead. The city is full of people. There is a dynamic of events there, even these days when there are air raid alarms and missile attacks. Another thing that touched me was about the schools. The schools in Kharkiv are not in ordinary buildings to be schools. No, because many of the schools were hit by Russians, and many were destroyed; there is a risk if you bring children there; there is a risk for them to be killed by Russian missiles. They manage to have some spaces for children to go to school in the metro stations. So, in some metro stations, they have classes. The children are there. If you want, I can provide you with some photos. I don’t know if you will need some photos for the article. If you need, I can send some touching photos of children there at the metro station learning. Learning Ukrainian and English is very nice. I saw on the walls of these classes a map of the US and a map of the UK. It is not the map of Russia, but the map of the US and the map of the United Kingdom because Ukrainians consider the US and the United Kingdom to be strong supporters. So, there is a mixture of tragedy and inspiring things at every step you go in Ukraine, especially in the cities which are quite close to the frontlines. The city of Kupiansk, unfortunately, because I have been to the trenches near the city of Kupiansk. But I also spent some time in the city, an hour or two filming or taking photos. The city is almost completely destroyed. It is like you want a pot-apocalyptic movie on HBO or Netflix.
Unfortunately, these kinds of things really happen while we speak, let’s say. In Kupiansk, you can hear explosions almost every minute. You can also hear the Russians who hit the city and the Ukrainians responding because there is also Ukrainian artillery nearby the city, not in the city, but nearby. There are many, many explosions. The frontlines are two or three kilometres away from the city.
Jacobsen: Amazing.
Cernea: Let me tell you some differences between the war in Ukraine and the war in Israel; I have become aware of some interesting differences and things that are quite the same or very, very different. For instance, in Ukraine, after you hear the air raid alarm, you have a few minutes to go to the shelter. How much time do you think you have in Israel?
Jacobsen: Zero.
Cernea: Fifteen seconds, or 30 seconds, but usually 15 seconds.
Jacobsen: Which is equivalent to zero?
Cernea: Yes, so when I heard the air raid alarm, I almost immediately heard the explosions.
Jacobsen: Amazing.
Cernea: And what I saw in Israel is happening in Ukraine. They put shelters in bus stations. So, there are some things. There are some small shelters for people – 10 or 12 people can go inside. If they are waiting for the bus, they are in bus stations. They built there in many places in Israel, such as small bunkers, let’s say – small shelters with strong walls. It is the same thing happening now in some places in Ukraine. I see this in Dnipro, the city of Dnipro. This is quite the same in Israel, but there are many more shelters like this in bus stations. In the city of Sderot, for instance, which is one kilometre away from Gaza, what have I seen in Israel? When I booked an apartment to stay in the city of Ashkelon, very near Gaza, they mentioned it on booking.com. They mentioned that the building is rocket-proof.
Jacobsen: That’s an important detail. That’s very interesting.
Cernea: Yes, so they have some walls in some buildings. All of the new buildings in Israel are rocket-proof. In the last few years, I don’t know when this started. But in recent years, I have spoken with some people there, and they told me all of the new buildings are rocket-proof. I have seen a rocket when it hit a wall of such kind of building. The building was almost untouched, almost not destroyed. So, they have some new architectural materials that make the walls of the buildings very resistant. Let me tell you this: the missiles that are used by Hamas. That was used by Hamas were not as powerful as the Russian missiles. The Russian missiles have ballistic missiles. They have big missiles. The missiles sent by Hamas to Israel were less powerful than the Russians. So, I don’t know if a ballistic Russian missile will be ineffective in hitting such a building. I don’t know what it could be. Usually, Hamas’ missiles are smaller than Russian missiles. So, there are some things that are quite the same. But there are some differences also.
Jacobsen: When are you hoping to travel next to Ukraine? I know there are certain cities that you haven’t done enough coverage on and that you’d like to do more coverage on.
Cernea: I will go to Ukratoe in May. Whether there will be a Russian offensive or not. Even if there is no large-scale attack or offensive of the Russian military, the fights are continuous there. They are continuing there. The fights are continuously there, continuing there. The fights are permanently in Ukraine. In the East and in the South, the war is continuing there. It is quite tough, but we will see if the Russians will try to start a big offensive during this Summer. I will go to Odesa, Zaporizhzhia.
Jacobsen: There might be an offensive just given the fact that the Russian Federation has committed ⅓ of its budget to military. So, there is a plan for development of more arms, and personnel.
Cernea: I think so. I think so. There is a big probability of a new offensive. We will see. We will see, but the best news that might come in May is if the US Congress will vote for that aid of $60 billion (US). If this sum is sent to support Ukraine, it would be amazing. If not, more people will die in Ukraine, definitely. With more civilians and more soldiers, more good people will die. More innocent children will die, and more brave soldiers, Ukrainian soldiers, will die if this aid is not provided to Ukraine as soon as possible.
Jacobsen: Remus, are there any current wars that you have not been to that you would like to travel to and do some journalism about?
Cernea: I would like to travel to some historical wars—Greeks against Persians or something like that.
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Cernea: Honestly, I do not want to go to these places. I do not want it to be necessary to go to such kinds of places. Unfortunately, we have to go, or people who are interested in such tragedies; we have to go, and we have to be witnesses of these dramatic events. If there were other wars, I wouldn’t want to start other wars, but there are some other risks. There are discussions about China, Taiwan, and whether this war in Israel will escalate or not. I want to live in a peaceful war. I want to live in a world in which we will cooperate between nations. There will be cooperation between nations, not war, not ideologies that make people do very, very terrible things and kill a lot of innocent. But as long as these wars are happening, I will try to be one of the witnesses who will show what is happening there.
Jacobsen: Remus, thank you very much again for your time.
Cernea: Thank you.
Further Internal Resources (Chronological, yyyy/mm/dd):
Humanist
Humanists International, Russian Federation, Ukraine, and the United Nations (2024/01/08)
Personal
The Long Happenstance of Iceland and Copenhagen (2023/12/09)
Romanian
Remus Cernea on Independent War Correspondence in Ukraine (2023/08/25)
Zaporizhzhia Field Interview With Remus Cernea (2024/02/21)
War and Destruction With Remus Cernea (2024/02/22)
Ukrainian
Ms. Oleksandra Romantsova on Ukraine and Putin (2023/09/01)
Oleksandra Romantsova on Prigozhin and Amnesty International (2023/12/03)
Dr. Roman Nekoliak on International Human Rights and Ukraine (2023/12/23)
Sorina Kiev: Being a Restauranteur During Russo-Ukrainian War (2024/01/27)
World Wars, Human Rights & Humanitarian Law w/ Roman Nekoliak (2024/03/07)
Oleksandra Romantsova: Financing Regional Defense in War (2024/03/11)
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Photo credit: Remus Cernea.