From expecting guys to pick up the tab to asking women to be “sexy” but not “sexual”, Joanna Schroeder is sick of the hypocrisy.
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Gender roles in relationships are definitely shifting, and have been for decades now. When it comes to relationships, even the standard for how a date should unfold is shifting rapidly. Back in the old days, a guy asked a woman on a date pretty formally, then arrived at her home (often greeted by her father) to pick her up, then escorted her to an event, meal or movie where he treated her to traditional chivalrous gestures. He was expected to open her car door, protect her “honor” should anyone be disrespectful, and of course pay the bill!
Now, women often choose to meet men out, and friendships that cross gender lines often make both men and women wonder if a date is really a date, or if it’s just a hangout.
All of these changes have led to some hilarious (and not so hilarious!) confusing double standards. Here are just a few I’ve experienced, observed, or raised an eyebrow at:
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1. Men should behave like “gentlemen”.
Does anyone really know what it means to be a “gentleman” anymore?
I can tell you that the last thing I’m interested in doing is waiting in a car for someone to open a door that I’m perfectly capable of opening myself. Seriously, I do it every day in my own car. You pull on the handle and then push. It’s not hard.
But apparently there are still a few women who think this is an important sign of a guy being respectful. So what are guys supposed to do? Do you insist upon opening a woman’s door, risking being seen as a relic or domineering guy who tells women not to open their own doors? Or do you risk being seen as a brutish cretin who doesn’t care enough to even open a woman’s door when she gets out of the car? It’s a real quagmire!
Solution: Early on in the date, or even while you’re making plans, just ask her! Casually say, “So, are you into traditional chivalry stuff, like guys opening car doors for women?” or even, “What’s do you think makes a guy a gentleman?” This may even give you an idea of whether the two of you will be compatible.
Also, everyone should be thoughtful. Hold doors open for people, give them a hand if they stumble or drop something, regardless of your gender or theirs.
2. Women should be sexy, but not sexual.
This is one of those head-scratchers that goes back as long as written history. Men seem to really like sexy women – but not women who are sexual and express desire. This has presented itself in a number of different ways throughout the generations. In my mom’s generation they always said, “He won’t want to buy the cow if you give the milk away for free!”
In my generation, guys talked about which girls were “wife material” and which girls were “f**k-able”. You’re supposed to be hot, you’re supposed to entice guys, but not supposed to actually enjoy or want sex with them. At least not casually (or maybe even until you’re married).
Why isn’t the woman you want to have crazy sex with also the one you’d consider having a relationship with? What does settling down with a more “virginal” woman gain you? Why is having a supposedly pure wife a sign of a successful man?
This BS is a remnant of patriarchy, and buying into it supports the oppression of women. After all, don’t guys want a “pure” wife because they think she’s more likely to be faithful and more subservient?
Solution: Drop the shame. That’s what this is about. We think sex is dirty and gross, but we still want and crave it. We need to reframe desiring sex as a beautiful and healthy thing – not just for guys but for women, too. And we need to remember that women who want sex aren’t insatiable beasts (any more than you are!) and can great partners for the long-term.
3. Guys should always pay on dates.
Come on now, give me one good reason why men should always pay for dates. This is outdated crap from a time when young women didn’t have reliable forms of income and young men did, and also set the stage for the man-as-breadwinner and woman-as-homemaker model that now feels downright silly.
And it’s not just old fashioned ladies who buy into this. It’s most modern women and lots of good guys! Ladies, what are we doing to ourselves here? This is crap, and we know it. We earn our own money, we can pay for dates too.
Solution: Whoever does the asking does the paying. If you ask someone out for steak and lobster, I hope you also have the funds to sign that bill. If that’s not in your budget, plan a picnic or head to a cafe.
Also, the non-paying party should always offer to cover half. At least while you’re first getting to know one another. After a while you can have a conversation about what works best for you, as a couple.
4. Men must defend their female partner’s ‘honor’ and safety.
This comes up in my own marriage with relative frequency because I’m the type of woman who isn’t afraid to tell someone off. Even a man.
Recently, a guy said something obnoxious to my son and me, as he walked away from us. Without thinking, I said, “You want to say that to my face?”
When he turned around and came at me, I realized that may have not been the safest choice. When my husband met up with my son and me outside the store he was aghast. He said, “You’re going to end up getting ME into fights with this stuff, too, you know.”
He explained to me the pressure upon a man, particularly a husband and father, to step in and defend us.
He asked, “What would happen if I just walked away while this guy yelled at you? Or if I’d kept quiet? You may not have minded, but I would feel like a failure, and most of the people watching would’ve seen me as an asshole, a wimp, or a bad husband and dad.”
It is a really tough situation, as women are generally smaller and less able to protect ourselves, and we often do not possess the social capital to advocate for ourselves to men the way other men can due to the remnants of patriarchy. That’s why we often call on men to stand up to other men when it comes to problems like street harassment and rape.
Men DO need to stand up to other men when they see abuse, sexism, or harassment in action. We’ve seen time and again that until the group in power (in this case, men) advocates for the oppressed group, nothing changes. But in some ways, this also feels like it undermines my right to stand up to men myself without putting my husband at risk.
Solution: First and foremost, we need systemic fixes to these huge problems. Nobody should feel empowered to harass or harm anybody else. This requires multi-faceted solutions in every arena from education to legislation to criminal justice.
In our daily lives, we should all stand up for one another, but try to resist the urge to increase conflict or find solutions rooted in violence. Self-defense is about protecting yourself without escalating conflict.
5. People don’t want to have an open marriage, but they still cheat like crazy.
By now you’ve probably heard of ethical polymory in some form or another, often called an open marriage. That is, you and your partner set up your own boundaries for commitment, and they don’t require monogamy, but they do require honesty and communication.
People in the US still find this very odd, for some reason.
The judgement of non-monogamous people in the United States is extra ridiculous, seeing as data supports the fact that up to 40% of marriages involve cheating by one or both partners. (Some stats even say that as many as half of men in marriages have been with other partners during their marriages).
It’s odd that we look down on marriages where partners are honest with one another about their sexual desires and activities with other people, but consider dishonesty and keeping secrets about our sexual behavior somewhat normal, and even dare call them “monogamous”.
Wouldn’t it be better if we went into commitment more honestly?
Solution: Stop judging people. Reframe in your mind what “normal” is and be honest with yourself and your partner about your ability to be monogamous. There’s nothing wrong with monogamy (or polyamory), as long as you’re honest with your partner.
6. “I’m not against gay people, but don’t you dare mistake me for being gay!”
These days, most young people in the USA say they’ve got nothing against people being gay, and every year more and more states are making same-sex marriage legal. But the most offensive thing you can do to some people is think they’re gay (or a lesbian, or whatever).
What kind of hypocritical crap is that?!
If you really accept LGBT folks, then you need to stop seeing their identity or orientation as an insult.
Solution: If you’re a guy and a guy asks you out or hits on you, just politely decline. Say, “No thanks,” or “Hey, I’m flattered but I’m actually straight.” Same goes for you, ladies. If you don’t think being a lesbian is a bad thing, who cares if someone thinks you are?
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What dating and relationship double standards drive you crazy?
Can you think of any good solutions for the ones above?
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Photo Credit: Flickr/Harrison Cohen Photo
I like these thoughts a lot: a step closer to just being people, instead of a battle of the sexes. Nice.
I don’t think people think it’s right oe monogamous that people in marriages cheat. It is a common problem, but although it is common I don’t believe that is equal to people thinking it’s ok. I do agree that it’s ok if people want to be in an open relationship and are not only honest with eachother but also honest with the other people as to not lead them on thinking they are available. I would never be in such a relationship or a third wheel to it, but that doesn’t mean it can’t work for some people. And as… Read more »
Great article. I agree on all points. Thanks for writing.
I didn’t get past #1. If he’s not perceptive enough to pick up on the cues and has to ask, then he obviously doesn’t know me well enough to ask me on a date, or he’s too dumb to waste my time.
so how’s waiting on a mind reader working out for you?
you see, joanna? you’re saying to guys “just ask” meanwhile, here’s the rest of women who see asking as a sign of mental inferiority.
As an impecibly-dressed single guy, I’ve had gay men buy me a number of drinks when out at bars. Rather than be argumentative about “I’m not gay, dammit!,” I’ve just politely admitted that I’m a straight guy, bought them the next round, and usually gotten into a good conversation about fashion, cooking, or other such topics. I’m fully behind biblical definitions of marriage, but I’ve never quite understood why we can’t take advantage of broader ideas of men’s roles (as a man with more of a domestic role – thanks to being the caretaker of elderly parents – I still would… Read more »
This is why you should never expect anything from someone else. For a lot of men, dating has become too much trouble to bother with. This is not hostility to women, but simple exhaustion. Unless you specifically plan to marry and have kids, what is the point? Save yourself the time, trouble and money and you will be a lot happier.
Wes – I think a lot of women feel like that too. Which is why so many women will spend more effort on careers, homes and kids then romantic partners. Exhaustion may be something we all have common ground on.
With that said, ironically though, the men and women that think you’re saving yourself trouble and money to simply not have someone in your life don’t really sound all that happy to begin with.
It’s no better to have someone in your life who makes you unhappy. We have been programmed all our lives to pair up whether it is right or not for every person.
That’s true as well. I think I was lucky in this regard with my own parents who never preasured me around this. My best friend’s Mom growing up was obsessive about her pairing up and getting married.
There are lots of things I’m perfectly capable of doing myself. Opening car doors is certainly included on that list. But it sure is nice when someone wants to show their care of me by doing something thoughtful for me. Whether that’s opening the door, buying my favorite kind of fancy coffee drink, taking me for a picnic or whatever. I bet most of us are capable of doing many things but it’s still nice when our partners show they care for us by doing thoughtful things for us. I bet there are tons of traditionally feminine things women do… Read more »
Erin, you hit on something. My friend who seemed destined for lifelong Batchelorhood got married almost 2 years ago. When I asked him “What changed your mind?” (I mean, I knew he viewed this Woman different than the others) He said the other night he took her out for dinner, and with no reservations everywhere they stopped had a long wait. Tim, being somewhat Impatient,was getting frustrated. Finally, Jeniene says “Why don’t we stop at the store, buy what we need, and I’ll cook us dinner.” Bro,Tim says, “I knew then, THIS WAS THE ONE!”
There you go. I see why Tim found that attractive.
Whenever I’ve cooked dinner for a man, he’s gotten really excited about it. I’ve never had a guy respond neutrally to the idea of me cooking for him. Their eyes light up and they are very enthusiastic about the idea of me cooking a meal. And I enjoy doing it to show off my cooking skills and to do something to show him I care.
I’ve been dating for decades. I was raised by educated, professional parents. I assume that I will pay for the first date, second date (which, of course, rarely happens in the world of dating)… A woman asking a MAN out??? I’ve asked, many times over the years, before I give my lectures, “how many of the women here have ever asked a man out on a date?”—and the maximum number of totaled responses from a room of adult, educated, liberal American women is three–usually ZERO is the total, for the room. I’ve had entire RELATIONSHIPS—multiple dates, over weeks, where the… Read more »
I just wanted to second these words, as a Millenials-generation man.
I think women also want men who are sexy not sexual. Overly sexual men are seen as gross pigs. The shame goes both ways, ideally we an get rid of it all.
Amen to that. It’s dirty, perverted to be an openly sexual person it seems.
Regarding the protection thing. He asked, “What would happen if I just walked away while this guy yelled at you? Or if I’d kept quiet? You may not have minded, but I would feel like a failure, and most of the people watching would’ve seen me as an asshole, a wimp, or a bad husband and dad.” I’m thinking more like, what if your husband didn’t walk away, but the other guy were to suddenly come at you, and physically take out both you and your husband? What if your husband tried to defend you but wasn’t actually capable to… Read more »
Yeah, while I can understand not wanting to take any $hit from an obnoxious jerk, especially when it involves your children, You must realize that if it’s a man you’re confronting, your husband becomes involved and if it escalates he’ll be ‘Stepping in’. You remember a while ago you had a column about that mass shooting in that Colorado movie theater? You said you were amazed that men died shielding their women from the bullets and I said then “That’s what Men do”.
Sooo ive never had a woman ask me out like ever…i always do the asking…so how on earth is she ever supposed to pay for a date?
Joanna
I have men tell me they do not want women that can compare them sexually to other men.
So those men think a virgin will never be able to understand if a man is a good lover or not.
It is funny……
Yeah the idea of a partner saying “you’re so amazing in bed” by a virgin (as a mark of a person’s virility) is so hilarious. It makes zero sense. I mean, it’s great if people are virgins and enjoy sex, but it’s not a mark that their partner is somehow better than anyone else. If anything, it’s the opposite.
“Amazing” or “great” aren’t neccessarily a comparison.
“Greater than”, on the other hand, would be.
If partners make each other feel good, it’s all good in my book, regardless of how many partners they’ve each had before. And I can’t see anything hilarious in that.
And for the record, I wouldn’t know if I’ve never been with a virgin becase I’ve never bothered to try and find out.
Then again, I’ve had women kick me out of bed because they perceived me as one.
Because “asking for directions” on the first encounter is obviously stepping too far out of the “man box” to be comfortable.
It’s like the old joke; Woman smacks her Man on the back of the head. “What was that for?” he asks. “That’s for being a lousy lover!” she says back. Man smacks Woman on the back of the head'”What’s that for?” she asks. “That’s for knowing the difference!”
On its own, that isn’t going to change anything for first dates. Men are still generally expected to be the one doing the asking, so that isn’t going to alleviate the expectation of men paying for their dates.
I don’t think that’s as true for younger people as it was for the older generations. I asked most guys I went out with on dates, and I’m almost 40. The younger generation is way more like me than the old ways.
As a Millenial I can tell you that the majority of women (or girls) absolutely expect or want the man (or boy) to take the first ask, which here also implies paying the bill. I have dated many girls from many countries so don’t tell me that I am biased or seeking the wrong women (as women do when I bring this issue — in their minds, their female friends are always different from that). The first-approach-from-the-man paradigm definitely does not only apply to asking the partner out, it applies to basically everything. Attempting the first kiss, escalating the relationship… Read more »
This comment ^^^^^ from A Millenial Man wins the internetz 🙂
Some women still hide behind tradition when it suits them. Granted, not all, but when I was dating (in a relationship now) the sheer number of profiles I saw on POF and OKC who proclaimed themselves an “independent woman” but still expected a man to make all the moves, was incredibly infuriating.
I am the kind of guy who will let a women fight (and maybe lose) her own fights. The women in my life have still gotten me in to more fights then I ever got myself into.
Good for you Anonguy for letting women fight their own fight instead of letting you do the fighting for them. They got themselves into fight, let them get themselves out of it. Its not worth getting kill or injured in a fight cause by a woman.
Hi Joanna, I agree with a few points but disagree with a few others. I think it’s upsetting that despite you valid statements such as “does anyone know how to be a gentleman anymore?” because I strive to adapt that way into my daily life. I try to be the person to open doors and pay for dates and all the other type of qualities you would expect from a gentleman as such. So when you brush it off it seems like it’s overlooked. You have every right to say that and of course be entitled to your opinion because… Read more »
chivalry is not compatible with gender equality
I’m not a prude by any means, but I still can’t wrap my head around polygamy. Why get married at all? You can still be in a committed relationship and live together. Why does everyone have such a compulsion to be married when the institution itself rarely works? I see so many unhappy marriages, it’s pathetic. But I digress. My point is emotions are powerful, and imo it’s extremely difficult for everyone in a polyamorous relationship to be on the same page emotionally at all times. I’ve seen it work for a while, but not long-term. Inevitably, someone always wants… Read more »
Tiffany Why get married? There are lots of reasons. One important reason ,at least where I live is that people around you will protect your relationskip more when you are married than when you are not and I confess I seldom tell married friends to split up when things are terrible but I do say so to friends that cohabitate. I am guilty of the same attitudes. I do not know anything about the laws in the US but in my country marriage will protect a woman many times more than if she choose to live with a man even… Read more »
I think you get married for the legal benefits – this document makes you family and saves a lot of money and mess with parenting, owning property together, power of attorney, etc etc etc. Non-monogamous relationships don’t mean you aren’t invested in your primary partner. They just mean that they don’t follow the traditional “no other partners except as a secret” model. And absolutely some people have a dream of being committed (in some way or another) with more than one person. This is like homosexuality in a way – people say “I just don’t get it. Why can’t you… Read more »
At 45, I am past the age where it matters, but if a woman has a history of casual encounters as opposed to a string of committed monogamous relationships, then I absolutely would not trust her with my heart.
People either are primarily driven by variety in partners and strictly athletic sex, or they prefer to explore their sexuality in the safety of a committed relationship. Think about it, do people get into their deepest darkest kinks with one night stands? I doubt it.
What is that based upon? Do you think that it’s impossible for people to have different phases in their lives? Times when they want more casual or FWB relationships and then move on to serious relationships?
People are dynamic. Just as there are times in your life when you shift hobbies or interests, there are times in your life when your sexual tastes shift.
Humans are interesting and complex. I feel bad for guys that miss out on wonderful partners because they have a preconceived notion of who they must be.
Like you, I have been facinated by the way wome and men interact my entire life and have been making observations based on my own relationships and what I have been able to observe about those around me. Though I have settled for casual encounters on occasion when feeling lonely, I have always found them less than satisfying. This isn’t a seasonal thing for me. So the type of person I could trust my heart with, would both understand without me telling them what I am talking about when I say that and would similarly see the world. I only… Read more »
And yet, somehow, women are expected to give their hearts to men who have had many, many times more sex partners than she’s had because patriarchy says that’s more OK.
I mean, if you don’t want to date someone who doesn’t want to commit, then that’s fine. But don’t assume that a multitude of sex partners means that there is an inability or unwillingness to do so.
Yes, I believe that a lot of people, maybe even the most, have different phases in their lives.
Isn’t that why both men and women, often seem to divide people into more or less mutually exclusive groups of potential crazy-hot sex partners, potential long-term relationship material, and (indifference).
AndI feel bad for most, both men and women, who miss out on opportunities for wonderful partners because people they meet have preconceived notions of them being one or the other.
Also, regarding chivalry:
http://feministing.com/2015/03/12/friendly-chivalrous-men-might-be-benevolent-sexists/
Being a thoughtful man will likely paint you as a sexist these days…
Being a thoughtful man will likely paint you as a sexist these days…
Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
I think all this confusion is what causes the popularity of the ‘Hookup’ culture today. Everyone(men and women) meets up at the ‘Club’. They get there on their own or with a group of friends, usually it’s the men that do the approaching, but more and more it’s alright for her to initiate contact. Maybe you buy her a drink or two, or maybe, if she insists, you let her buy you one. While this all seems ,to a F.O.F. like me, like it’s a culture from an alien planet, but it seems quite popular with the young crowd today.
Thank you for this very thoughtful and humane post, Joanna. I enjoyed reading it, especially the last entry about being mistaken for being gay. A common problem dealing with straight men is that if you are a total shit to them—cold, discourteous, and completely without sympathy—they’re happy. If you are warm, sincere, kind, and thoughtful, they’re sure you’re coming on to them. This is sad; the result is that a large number of defensive heterosexual men are chronically depressed and unable to have relationships with either sex. The thing that most men want more than anything else is genuine attention… Read more »
I have courted many women who were genuinely offended by the traditional ways of gentlemen. However, every lady I have courted appreciated them.
Let be careful about having a conversation about polyamory and cheating in the same sentence. Most cheaters aren’t interested in poly. These are extremely insecure people who are interested in escape, hiding, and not facing their own problems head on.
I think I made very clear that they are very different.
Joanna:
Boom! this post is destined to go viral as it captures the ambiguities of modern life.
I think the only thing I have issue with is that men, okay, me, have always liked women who could/would express sexual desire.
I think really secure guys, like you, are into that. But SO MANY guys who are stuck in the “Act Like a Man Box” are not taught to appreciate that for women they plan on having a relationship with – “wife material” women are modest and demure, in their minds. Not obviously into sex!
I want my wife to be as kinky and high in libido as me, I want her 100% confident or as close to in her sexuality so she can enjoy it with me.
I find I am usually the one challenging some of my female friend’s slut-shaming themselves and other women, sooo much guilt over sex when it should be a positive n happy thing!