Forgive me if I have been a bit slow on my reading from A Voice For Men given the uproar just before the holidays. I did, however, finally get around to reading “An Open Letter to Tom Matlack” written by a 40 year-old divorced mother of three who goes by the pen name GirlWritesWhat on her blog “Owning Your Shit”. The author begins, “I understand, I really do” and then continues on, in part:
“I’ve come to discover over my years of reading about gender issues that there really is no fury like a feminist scorned. I’ve learned a lot about human instinct in my 41 years on this planet, enough to know that the women and men who are most ruled by their instincts find a comforting ideology in feminism. The male feminist is chivalry incarnate, and the female feminist is a woman’s instinctive self-interest rendered down to its purest elixir. This marriage of male self-sacrifice and female self-interest in an age of total female liberation is social nihilism. It is a critical mass of troglodytic instinct sufficient to deny objective reality and steer humanity down a very dark path.
When you started the Good Men Project, you believed you were demonstrating your devotion to a set of ideals and the group that represents them. Now you’ve learned what your devotion was worth to them. Like a homeless man, you put your foot wrong and were cut loose, you’ve become a lifeboat rower with no arms, a broken cog in their machine, and it’s time to throw you away.”
The letter is accompanied by the video (below) by “John the Other” who is managing editor of Voice For Men.
Of course I got another letter recently, hard copy, from 71-year-old former professor Larry Daloz in which he told me:
“I have struggled over the years to hold the center and reach for a new, deeper understanding of what it means to be a man for the twenty-first century. I read your book and discovered your website not long ago and was both gripped by the power of many of the pieces and struck especially by your articulate and courageous recent effort to maintain your integrity in the midst of harsh criticism from both sides. The hardest thing of all, I think, is to acknowledge the radical truth of the Other even as we hold our own with full integrity.”
With Larry’s words in mind I would say to John the Other and Girl Writes What thank you. Thank you for the attention and the thought and the passion. I share the goal of supporting men.
On the issue of rape culture I obviously got myself into plenty of hot water by resisting the belief that all men should be treated as rapists until proven otherwise and only men can prevent rape. We’ve obviously been focussed on the plight of male victims of sexual abuse recently from my CNN column on the change in the Justice Department’s definition of rape to include men to “I’ve Got the T-Shirt and the Trauma Response to Go With It” to my buddy who was the first to come forward in the Boston priest scandal going public.
None of which is to minimize the sexual abuse of women. Only to say that we get the point loud and clear than men are victims all too often. And male victims deserve our attention and sympathy just as much as female victims do. No sexual abuse is okay. There is no pecking order when it comes to those who are abused. We all, men and women, need to work together to put a stop to abuse, no matter what the gender of the victim.
Where we differ is on the blanket statements about feminism. Don’t get me wrong I have indeed taken my body blows from men and women who call themselves feminists. That I will grant you. But that doesn’t mean that I think it fair to throw the folks who have held me down and beaten me in the same pot with those who might also call themselves feminists but who believe, as did my mom for that matter, that the goal is equality. As Professor Daloz put so well: We can be equal without obliterating all distinctions between men as a class and women as a class.
In the end I am quickly coming to the point of view that “feminism” is a label that means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. So to say that all feminists believe that all men are rapists really isn’t that helpful. What is more helpful is to say that anyone who thinks all men are rapists is being grossly unfair and sexist.
It’s probably no accident that we seem to have gained a number of evangelists who would call themselves MRAs and lost some evangelists who would call themselves feminists. The conversation before the holidays was challenging on all sides and in the end we took a stand that personal attacks could only go so far before we had to call a time out (we did ultimately publish the piece that Hugo resigned over but after a cooling off period).
But as I have written more than once at least from my point of view there is no litmus test to be part of the Good Men Project community other than having an interest in talking about manhood, a willingness to explore topics from a first person perspective, and some amount of civility. There are still plenty of women involved in our community, from our CEO to evangelists to readers and commenters. People who call themselves feminists are welcome. As are folks who have a strong MRA orientation. And Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Inmates, Soldiers, Pacifists, and all sexual orientations, races, and creeds.
No one is excluded from the conversation about what it means to be a good man.
I am sure that won’t satisfy those for whom dogma is more important that individual stories of men doing inspirational things, sometimes in the face of great suffering. But truly the Good Men Project was never intended to be a platform to espouse any particular dogma. It was founded as a way to begin a conversation.
“Feminist” is an empty term. If it means so many different things to so many different people, it has lost any place in serious academic discussion. That doesn’t mean that people cannot identify themselves as feminists, but a term defined exclusively by personal belief and experience is useless for the purposes of communication. To use such a word would be to speak with no possibility or intention of making yourself clear to your audience from the beginning, and that speaks of an argument made in bad faith. If we wish to use the word “feminist” and be understood by others,… Read more »
Very much agreed, mainstream feminism is very much of the biased and hateful type. And even if one is willing to accept that egalitarian feminists exist, and accept Christina Hoff Sommers as a feminist (as she self identifies, but feminists themselves deny), the best you can come up with is that the common denominator of feminism is female empowerment. This gives no indication of to what degree or how one feels about men. As those details are not consistent throughout feminism, and changes from feminist to feminist, they can not be identified as being aspects of feminism one way or… Read more »
Why the heck is there even so many feminists posting on a website about men? A fish needs a bicycle? What on earth are they doing here? Any sane man wants nothing to do with them. However there gross sense of entitlement tells them they have the right to define men like modelling clay.
No wonder men go their own way.
However there gross sense of entitlement tells them they have the right to define men like modelling clay. Boy that made me howl with laughter! So many keep telling Tom and Lisa what GMP should be. and trying ever so hard to treat it just like “modelling clay” – and all to be remodelled in their own image! I think that Tom may have already made the point clear when he said: No one is excluded from the conversation about what it means to be a good man. I am sure that won’t satisfy those for whom dogma is more… Read more »
Oh, please.
Yes, let’s have some articles from the Aryan Nation on what it means to be a good man. I am sure a piece or two on booting homos would add to the dialogue here.
The point has always been that so much of what is presented on this site is not a conversation about how to be a good man, but a diatribe on how bad men really are and how they need feminist influence to be better.
Grok it, brother. It ain’t gonna hurt you.
“But that doesn’t mean that I think it fair to throw the folks who have held me down and beaten me in the same pot with those who might also call themselves feminists but who believe, as did my mom for that matter, that the goal is equality. ” My view of feminism is that feminism is a movement for the empowerment of women (and only women). To what degree (and this is where I deviate from many MRA’s myself) varies from feminist to feminist. Some are about only empowering women to the levels men have (but not disempowering them… Read more »
” That is my biggest problem with your definition of “feminism is about egalitarianism”, not all (recognized) feminist fit that definition, yet they remain feminists, if your definition was correct, that couldn’t be.”
Correction, my problem with some egalitarian feminists definition, not yours (sorry, this paragraph is a cut/paste response I use often)
Thank you for writing this, Tom! And even better for keeping a calm tone…! I was involved in a 7 year relationship with a man much older than myself 20 years ago…at the time, I looked at it as part of a complicated mentor-student/ intellectual equals/ meeting of the minds kind of relationship which eventually became a romantic/taboo/secret May-December love relationship….2 decades later, I look back at it (after much head rewind and after reading Lundy Bancroft’s “Why Does He Do That?”) and then I realize that a truck has just run over me….I was manipulated, coerced, gas-lighted, and abused… Read more »
That seems to be a non sequitur, the content of your post has absolutely nothing to do original post.
“I was manipulated, coerced, gas-lighted, and abused in the worst ways possible but I was calling it love because I didn’t have the vocabulary or the insight to call it what it really was (much like your Catholic Church pedophile victim)….” @Male, I think she means this site has helped educate her on the various terms for abuse. “Why can’t men and women speak civilly to each other? Why couldn’t I talk to him like this for 7 years? What happens in a relationship that shuts a woman down?” You could probably read the stories of men here and if… Read more »
When that demonstration about the dearth of female garbage truck drivers is set up, I volunteer to carry a sign
PB
“Her choice of words tells me she enjoys hearing herself talk/write (you know what I mean).””
Ad hominem
“”I am the last to criticize a fellow female”” Why? Thats not very “equal” of you. In fact that little remark dashed your credibility
May we know what codified inequality there exists? May we know what tangible and specific things that could fix these?
Oh and may I have some idea what the world looks like when feminists could say, ok, we are done here?
The 40 year old single mom seems to embrace the very nihilism she espouses to hate. Her choice of words tells me she enjoys hearing herself talk/write (you know what I mean). I am the last to criticize a fellow female, but she has NO IDEA what feminism is about. It’s about equal rights, period. It’s about no glass ceilings. It’s about treating women’s issues and health as equal with men’s, etc. It’s abouse looking at gender roles for both men and women and expanding them so everyone has equal opportunities to live up to their potential, both women AND… Read more »
I don’t think you would want equal health to men seeing as they die earlier. 😛
Care to elaborate where she’s offbase further? I’m genuinely curious, not looking for a fight.
It does not make sense to talk about the glass ceiling while on the other side being unwilling to talk about the ground floor. Might be more men are in politics or business or rich otherwise, but the opposite side shows a similar situation. More men than women are homeless, in jail, low educated, with health problems and so on and son on….
Yohan, you are a PR genius!
“The Glass Floor.”
Feminists should be challenged to either shatter The Glass Floor or raise it to the Ceiling.
It’s so simple, if feminists want to talk with MRAs, they have to consider the other side of the story. As MRA I am talking about rape only, when feminists agree to talk at the same time about false rape allegations with me. The same is true with the glass ceiling – we can talk about it, but only if we talk about the ground ‘glass’ floor too. Same is true for any other subject, conversation cannot be only one-way. That’s the diplomatic way how to negotiate. You talk about late abortion rights even when 8 months pregnant and I… Read more »
Tom: Ok, you are all about equality. And? What do we lack? What do we lack that can be fixed by constant churning about it? The answer is absolutely nothing. That women have some need to be perceived, not as equal to men, but exactly equal to men (and better in the important parts, of course) tells us what? That women and sadly most men have to walk around like automatons saying “women are great, women are equal, never will I doubt a woman….” seriously, the things that this ongoing repetition of platitudinous pontification seek to address are what my… Read more »
Evangelists? That’s projection from a feminist evangelist.
It’s what contributors to the GMP are called. Jesus, chill.
Ton wrote: “We’ve obviously been focussed on the plight of male victims of sexual abuse recently from my CNN column on the change in the Justice Department’s definition of rape to include men to “I’ve Got the T-Shirt and the Trauma Response to Go With It” to my buddy who was the first to come forward in the Boston priest scandal going public.” Tom, I notice John The Other mentioned false rape accusations. In all seriousness I want to ask if your championing of your articles dealing with rape of males is somewhat of a deflection of the moral invitation… Read more »
@ Theresa – there is a complex balance to be had between content and contribution. It’s not about Ideology it’s about heart. Tom is not some demigod who dictates content – the project does. It depends on people bringing up issues, discussing them and writing about them in a way that makes them accessible and suitable for publication. I see no reluctance to deal with issues, but there is a “learned reluctance” from many to stop commenting and start writing. It has been interesting to see some shifts. One has been that some people have been happy to comment all… Read more »
[Some typos- so resubmitting] “It’s not about Ideology it’s about heart.” While that may be a good line for a poetry competition I’m afraid it just reads as a vacuous answer to a very detailed question, though I’m sure you meant well. Regarding whether I’m a writer or a commenter, or whether I’m a “lover of problem”s or alternatively “a lover of solutions”, I have to disappoint you and say that I don’t fit into such cute cuts and cubbyholes. I’m both a writer and a commenter, and someone interested in problems and solutions both. However I’m sure writing the… Read more »
Well then Theresa – you have the opportunity – don’t just ask Tom the Question – ask everyone! Tom can only answer for himself – he is not in fact GMP – so ask your questions of all readers – and you may get more than what you perceive as vacuous answers! P^) If you want to question “false rape accusations” and get some answers – what’s stopping you? As you say “I’m both a writer and a commenter, and someone interested in problems and solutions both.” … so press the button and see what happens! Why ask just one… Read more »
Of course I can search for answers to a question MediaHound- I’m not an imbecile, thanks. If you read a little more carefully you will see I was wanting to know the view of a particular person, and that question still stands (whether you dislike me asking or not). Of course I’m more than happy for anyoner else to offer thier view on the matter too.
@Theresa – If you wish to view the clarification of information as relating to someone seeing you as an “imbecile” please go right ahead. Your choice. I never implied such or viewed you as such! On the other hand – some of us are aware that it’s not only you that reads responses to you! So I make no apology for providing information to help other readers. If you are unhappy with that – well Tough! I am very careful in my reading – and also rather sharp at pricking up errors. Maybe if you read a few back threads… Read more »
If you can find someone with a story about falsely being accused of rape I’m sure it could get published here.
“In the end I am quickly coming to the point of view that “feminism” is a label that means a lot of different things to a lot of different people.”
Surely, Tom, the fact that “FEMIN” occurs in the word feminism must tell you something despite the fact it means a lot of different things to a lot of different people.
Surely the presence of “FEMIN” tells you that all people who hold to the term are feminocentric?
I would actually like a response to this question.
Some feminists once told me feminism is equalism, but I got blasted out and whataboutthemenz when I dare argued that to be for equalism you had to stick up for male rights and issues as well as female rights and issues. I had said the feminine part of feminism makes it gendered towards women and they had argued it was for equality! it was for equality! Equalism isn’t needed because feminism already is equalism. I don’t think they ever understood their own hypocracy but I don’t know where this feminism is that apparently listens to the men and stands up… Read more »
The equivalent would be if we used ‘Maleness-ism’ to refer to equality and many other things. I sincerely wonder if Tom would see the problem in the word then?
Archy, my experiences with MRAs is that they, too, have a similar situation in which some MRAs are simply trying to provide a voice for male oppression with equality for everyone as a goal, but there are also MRAs who are very anti-feminist, who are rather anti-women, and who are concerned with advancing men’s rights, without conversely addressing women’s rights. And this is why I think that it’s so important to listen to individual people within either movement when having these discussions, because otherwise we are mired down by our prejudice and miss the important things that MRAs and feminists… Read more »
“but there are also MRAs who are very anti-feminist, who are rather anti-women”
PLEASE do not equate these two terms as being the same, similar, or even related. It’s very offensive.
Be easier to all just use egalitarian, but I’m sure that label too would cop flack somehow. It’s sooo annnooyyyingg.
I suspect many MRA’s have concerns that the feminists who currently hold influence would co-opt an egalitarian movement at the moment, much as they have co-opted men’s studies and the LGBT, putting that movement’s issues aside when they conflict with women’s best interests (see below for example**). In many places, “women’s studies” course were converted to a more egalitarian “gender studies”, or so the story went, but those programs remain focused on women as victims and men as oppressors. Very little actually changed, except the inclusion of men as abusers/oppressors was credited as talking about men. So there is hesitation… Read more »
Jasmine: there are also MRAs who are very anti-feminist, who are rather anti-women, and who are concerned with advancing men’s rights, without conversely addressing women’s rights To be anti-feminist or to be anti-women is not the same. I am an MRA and strongly against feminism, but I am not against women. I am married since over 30 years, never divorced and I have 2 daughters and 1 fostergirl. Yes, MRAs are concerned about men’s rights, that’s the point why we are MRAs and why should we not be concerned about men? It’s not our intention to please feminists and offering… Read more »
We have no political power.
(No councils for men)
We have no funding.
(VAWA)
No chanting hordes of dim-witted college students.
(lesser standard of proof in the colleges)
All we have is truth.
(not dogma)
Add No direction and No sympathy to that list as well.
Yes the No Sympathy part is well known.
Decades of mockery, minimization denial of and false accusations of abuse against advocates of male abuse victims stands testament to that.
“I am sure that won’t satisfy those for whom dogma is more important that individual stories of men doing inspirational things, sometimes in the face of great suffering.” Oh Tom. Is that what it takes to be a good man? To do inspirational things, sometimes in the face of great suffering? I would put forth the insane proposition that to be a good man, one need only be. Drink beer, drink protein shakes, box, collect stamps, fix cars, hug puppies, arrange flowers, stand up to a bully, back down from a bully, be alone in the woods, hang with friends,… Read more »
Are you suggesting that being a good man is much the same as being a good woman?
With that attitude you have given yourself away as antifeminist.
leta said
“With that attitude you have given yourself away as antifeminist.”
With that attitude you’ve given yourself away as an anti-mens rights activist.
MRA’s,unlike feminists do not wish to detract from the opposition.
(not the two ends of the same snake at all)
I think you misunderstand i was making fun of feminists by suggesting that it is anti feminist to treat men and women the same……
Freebird, she was kidding, for God’s sake.
Flat out apologies to Leta.
All I can say in my defense is that I’ve seen so many snippity round-about attacks to the menz I’ve lost my frame of reference.
(the crazy never stops)
Too many college educated gender professionals using 50 cent words and tongue in cheek mockery has over taxed my hillbilly
(common sense)
Brain.
I’m either gonna need a cheat sheet or take a vacation away from the professional fem-splainers.
Frankly it’s a form of intellectual insanity.
(The very worst kind)
It has been debilitating attempting to interact here as a common layman.
Love your site, GWW, and especially your video about male objectification. Beautiful list of activities to be participated in as part of being “a good man.” I like Tom’s concept to, but since he already does most of the things you listed, as do many of us, I don’t really see him framing “rules” to be a good man. The GMP site mandate pretty much bears out that he figured that out a long time ago. With regard to doing inspirational things in the face of great suffering, I believe he was talking about the stories that the GMP publishes… Read more »
You seem be bouncing between trying to castigate the men movement by likening them to the radicals that run feminism, and loving girlwriteswhat.
GirlWritesWhat makes an extremely important point: life involved ‘being’ and ‘doing’.
At present GMP seems to allot doing to men, and being to women. Thats a tough act to follow.
How about we begin to frame men’s and boys’ lives in terms of being – bein g with a freind, being with family, being with nature, being with oneself, being alone, being happy, being sad, being healthy, being unhealthy…. just being.
Pleaswe, please GMP stop the slave-trade of encouraging men to endless action.
GirlWritesWhat makes an extremely important point: life involves ‘being’ and ‘doing’.
At present GMP seems to allot ‘doing’ to men, and ‘being’ to women. Thats a tough act to follow.
How about we begin to frame men’s and boys’ lives in terms of being – being with a freind, being with family, being with nature, being with oneself, being alone, being happy, being sad, being healthy, being unhealthy…. just being.
Please, please GMP stop the slave-trade of encouraging men to endless action.
Apologies for the repeat posts, am still figuring my way in how the system works. I’m almost getting it
“What is more helpful is to say that anyone who thinks all men are rapists is being grossly unfair and sexist.” Yes, exactly!! And I think most people, and most feminists, would agree with this statement. Sometimes it seems to me that parts of these conversations around sexual violence are taken grossly out of context, and some men feel like blame is being placed on them when that isn’t the intention (e.g., the ‘men can stop rape’ campaign). Women and girls are taught from a young age to be proactive, to prevent rape by not drinking too much, or by… Read more »
It’s astonishing how many “very angry males” will get “angry” over repeated assertions that they’re all suspected rapists in “the rape culture” until proven “innocent.” Men are funny that way, especially, good men.
It’s this type of defensiveness that isn’t helpful. I understand that men wouldn’t appreciate being called rapists. But I’ve not made that assertion. Perhaps some discussions of rape culture center around blaming men as rapists (I’ve not seen these particular conversations on the subject, but I’m not denying they exist). But, in the conversations, literature, and discourse that I have encountered on rape culture, the discussions are not at all about blaming men or suggesting that all men are rapists, but about looking at a culture that promotes certain types of masculinity and femininity as a factor in sexual assault… Read more »
Jasmine, it may not be “helpful” to you, but it is remarkably “helpful” for men to have someone point out what it feels like to them when the words “men” and “rape” are casually linked, alongside condescending comments about how some “very angry males” might take issue with it after a certain point. I’m not saying that you are saying that all men are rapists. I get that 100%. But the implicating tone of the entire discussion of “rape culture” as it has been recently framed here on the GMP, largely by feminist commentators, is something many of the male… Read more »
I totally understand that, but the thing is that the conversations at GMP are not the only conversations about rape culture that are going on. So I fully understand that these conversations can provoke a sense of blaming given previous conversations that have taken place (I’ve not been privy to them; I only occasionally read pieces here when they come to my attention and almost never read the comment sections of any website), but those aren’t the only conversations of rape culture that take place. And I’m just suggesting that we can have these conversations in a manner that brings… Read more »
I agree with all of that, and thank you for the clarification, Jasmine. Beautifully put.
I think the recent unveiling of the cdc stats did quite a bit extra to getting men defensive and rightly so. It proved to us all that 1, rape stats use heavy bias which remove a lot of male victims and female perpetrators, 2, rape is done quite often against men, and by women in the majority of that time for the 12 month figure at least, and 3, rape occurs in equal levels to men and women for the last 12 months. See there are “Men can stop rape” campaigns, but we have writers who say “Only men can… Read more »
I certainly don’t disagree with you on that. But, sexual assault is overwhelmingly committed by males, so I do understand why the majority of the messages are directed at having women take preventative caution and at asking males to intervene when they see something inappropriate occurring. This isn’t to say that all males are rapists or that all females are definitely not rapists. This is where culture intersects ideology; because of the way it is talked about at the cultural level, many people have some seriously problematic misconceptions about the nature of sexual assault (men and women included). However, that’s… Read more »
“But, sexual assault is overwhelmingly committed by males,”
Correction. 100% of sexual assaults are committed by Criminals. Why is the gender of the criminal mentioned? And that is a Serious Questions that requires a serious answer that requires zero statistics.
The Trope of “Overwhelming” is abusive – and unwelcome.
“But, sexual assault is overwhelmingly committed by males, so I do understand why the majority of the messages are directed at having women take preventative caution and at asking males to intervene when they see something inappropriate occurring”
.
What percentage of total sexual assaults should women have to commit before a gender neutral approach is undertaken?
“What percentage of total sexual assaults should women have to commit before a gender neutral approach is undertaken?”
Very interesting question! And the answer is…….?
At what point do we drop the overwhelmingly committed by males though? It does feel like some feminists desperately want to cling to the assumption of men doing the majority of violence and that is what it reminded me of. With bias removing male victims n female perps, and the first big study to find rape is more closer to parity than we thought across the genders, I don’t think it’s helpful whatsoever to even continue saying the overwhelming majority of rapists are men, especially not in the last 12 months as 40% and 60% aren’t an overwhelming gap. Part… Read more »
Reading repetitions of Jasmine’s formulaic replies of ‘i agree with what you are saying yet you are still wrong and i’m right’ is like watching Linda Blair’s head spin around and around in the exorcist.
@ archy “At what point do we drop the overwhelmingly committed by males though?”
Well and number have dropped it and question it’s use. That use of “We” is interesting. P^)
Some drop misleading “Tropes” because they have open minds.
Those who don’t drop them have many motivations – the primary being the “Trope” is so heavy and large that they fear injury to toes as it is dropped, and the resulting “Ouch” being so loud it will be heard all over the Blog-sphere and even in the deepest, darkest and dustiest nether regions of The Net. P^)
“But, sexual assault is overwhelmingly committed by males” Archy pointed to the CDC report on partner and sexual violence which shows otherwise. He discussed this fact in his post. You then proceeded to ignore it all and spout the same old “it’s almost all on men” we hear anytime we try to talk about it. So long as you maintain that attitude, where you hold one gender as “more responsible” for perpetrating it then the other, you can’t honestly claim to be about ending it. You’re instead laying blame and accountability for a solution (hence the men stop rape campaigns).… Read more »
Really? So you’d be okay with an ad campaign about parental alienation that targeted women (much more accurately–at least considering that 85% of custodial parents are mothers–than any gender-targeted statement about rape considering the CDC has demonstrated gender-symmetry in previous-year victims and near-parity in perpetrators) and went something like this: “My position as custodial parent is not for hurting. Parental alienation is child abuse and domestic violence. Women can stop parental alienation.” Or how about this one: “When my girl friend started messing with her ex’s access to his kids, I stepped in and told her: ‘parental alienation is child… Read more »
@GirlWritesWhat Thank you for some amusing gender balances and comparisons – and as of “men can stop rape” meme , that is true to a degree – but there have also been the OP’s who have said “only men can stop rape”, which has been so wrong it has had to be ripped to shreds. It was also linked to male rape victims – so it took on the colours of victim blaming, shaming, rape apologia and denial. The double standards being espoused by some are Hypocrisy of the highest order, and beyond egregious – and many have become so… Read more »
” But I’ve not made that assertion.” But you aren’t the only feminist, or even the average feminist, as much as you would like to believe you are. Furthermore, what you find to be benign, others can find offensive. If you are not willing to acknowledge this possibility, then you are the guy in the bar calling women that pass by “gorgeous”, “beautiful”, “hot stuff”, “sweetie-pie” etc. He may think he’s being complementary, but to many, he’s being offensive, or at least pathetic. Is that who you want to be, the person saying things casually that actually comes off as… Read more »
@Michael Russell Rowe – It’s not just the “all men are rapists” meme that has been an issue – it’s how the meme has been breeding and even changed into “Only Men Can Stop Rape”. It has been said here on GMP. That it was mixed up with telling men that yes they could be raped – and yes women could be rapists – and yes all victims counted ….. and then it becomes the equivalent of telling male rape victims it was their own responsibility – AKA Victim Shaming – Rape Apologia – Rape Denial! It was even supposedly… Read more »
Jasmine
It doesn’t really matter what you say most feminists will agree with.
What really matters is the ideology and legislation and the bogus data that feminism is producing.
Male,
The actions of feminists speak even louder than their mouths even though that might seem impossible.
“And I think most people, and most feminists, would agree with this statement.” Then you don’t pay very much attention to a large number of feminists. Jessica Valenti, the founder of jezebel, has actually suggested we should adopt the idea’s from Swedish legal consultants who suggest, for men (only), when accused of rape, the presumption of innocent until proven guilty should be reversed. The US government, with the dear colleague letter sent to colleges and almost implemented into the newest VAWA reauthorization recommendations, has practically implemented that very notion into college policy, by force (threatening to cut funding is by… Read more »
Tom, you carry the torch well. I am a firm believer in building bridges even while others are burning them at the same time. Keep building and thanks for all you do to move this important – but difficult – conversation forward.
Personally I have a lot of respect for Mr. Matlack for how he has conducted himself during the internal controversy, including now, where he offers up some uncensored criticism of GMP from Girl Writes What and John the Other. I think it fits with some of the changes that have been happening in this venue over the last several weeks, which is the only, if mild, criticism I have about this article. Tom speaks as though all this is business as usual; just another day on a forum interested in all ideas and opinions on the lives of men. However… Read more »
Nice comment, Paul.
Hi Paul, Thanks for stopping by. One of the great things we’ve done over the past few months is embrace our community of commenters, and view them not simply as a group of MRA’s, but individuals with each their own stories; as men who understand the issues of other men and are willing to speak up. We have a team of moderators whose first goal is not to police, but to listen, to not only listen but really hear those who speak, and help others hear them as well. We have men — from MRA’s, to activists of all sorts,… Read more »
Lisa.
Any chance the moderators could not comprise of totally of women that are feminists? It’s inappropriate and undignified.
I’m sure Lisa would love more volunteers if you are interested. Just email her and she can set you up.
We now have 5 moderators — two female, three male.
Are they anonymous? Are they all feminists?
Lisa,
At first glance, you look like you could be cousins with Rachel Ray.
Ahh, no. I just smile a lot. 🙂
This is the opposite of what Paul suggested by MRA’s giving this place a break.
I agree, I think those of us that do call ourselves MRA’s need to be gentler in regards to GMP. I’ve seen several comments about articles here, on MRA sites and Reddit, that are pretty hard on GMP just because it’s GMP. I admit I’ve been critical as well. I think if the good folks at GMP give a voice to those MRA’s that do write about real concerns facing men, I feel that this site can become a place for both sides of the fence and the middle to come together and at least start discussion. We do have… Read more »
Well said. I agree.
That is the aim, Kyle. Thanks.
i think we have seen a shift in the gmp, for a lot of its time since its inception it did seem very feminist led however since the changes since hugo leaving we as MRA’s have found it a place where we can talk , can listen and be listened to , the gmp through the changes may actually become a tool that is useful and welcome in the “manosphere”
i just think it’s great that I can be the white knight for feminists everywhere. Who knew they needed my help.
Here we go again.
“Here we go again.”
Eh?
“From where I’m sitting, I see the radfems and the MRAs as being two ends of the same snake.”
Those who live in glass houses….
I’m not living in a glass house, sunshine. In the last eight weeks, I’ve watched feminists tear apart the lives of two men I care about and respect, and I’ve read MRA websites that wish physical harm on people they think of as “feminist collaborators.” I know exactly of which I speak. “Ists” are bad news.
“I’ve read MRA websites that wish physical harm on people they think of as “feminist collaborators.”
Please, let’s be honest here. Point us all to any, even remotely prominent MRA writer that has made statements wishing physical harm on anyone. I don’t mean some obscure, anonymous commenter, but an actual MRA that has any kind of following.
I don’t think you can. Not for one second. And if that is true, you are much more of a problem than any “ist” I can think of.
Thanks for the clarification, Paul. Now that you’ve cleared up the fact that unless an MRA writer or blogger is “remotely prominent,” wishing physical harm on feminist collaborators, it doesn’t count. This will be thrilling news for the hundreds of less than “remotely prominent” feminist writers and bloggers who have been tearing apart Tom and Hugo Schwyzer, since their lack of “prominence” means nothing they say or do counts,.
Thanks, daddy.
Point the way. I’m a feminist collaborator. Where be those physical harmer types?
Michael Rowe says:
January 18, 2012 at 10:10 pm
…..wishing physical harm on feminist collaborators….
————————————————————————-
Do you really think, this is a one-way?
What about all these anonymous feminist bloggers wishing physical harm on MRAs and their families? Why are you silent about that?
As MRA from Europe with Asian wife I receive frequently feminist-racist related hatemail, which contains everything from calling my wife and daughters to be whores, from threats to come to my house and beat me up and this goes on up to death wishes.
I’m not silent, Yohan. I was quite clear above that, that in the last eight weeks, I’ve seen feminist bloggers tear apart the lives of two men I care a great deal about and respect. Sorry you missed that. Perhaps try reading next time, not editing with your eyes.
If you are not silent, you are evasive. We were talking about feminists attacking MRAs, you are talking about feminists attacking Hugo. I gave you a link to a feminist website, where ALL MRAs are considered to support rape and assault. Still I am waiting to give us in return one link to MRA websites which is truly wishing physical harm on feminists. So far – silence, as expected. About MRAs, at least most of them I know as an MRA myself, do not want to have anything to do with feminism. They want to avoid feminists. And there are… Read more »
Nice evasion. Here’s the deal. There are really unfortunate people and ideas all across the internet, especially in the comment sections of sites that deal with social issues. I have seen nutcases spouting some pretty unreal stuff in comments on countless websites, including this one and my own. Likewise, I have seen some very obscure blogs, with little to no following, where writers claim to be MRA’s, feminists, Christians, Libertarians, conservatives, liberals, etc., where really radical and thoughtless drivel is presented. I would not link those people, any of them, to their claimed groups just because they give themselves the… Read more »
I actually have been very disappointed in the voluble attack on Hugo Schwyzer. I have stated, and will state again, that I do not begrudge him his past. Our pasts inform our presents, and I think his experiences can provide feminist activists a perspective they might not otherwise have in an ally who’s experienced such a past. I am a feminist, but when I was young I spent some time espousing some rather misogynist views. Does this make me a bad feminist? No, but it does inform how I approach certain issues, and has provided me with important insight. But… Read more »
“I have stated, and will state again, that I do not begrudge him his past. Our pasts inform our presents, and I think his experiences can provide feminist activists a perspective they might not otherwise have in an ally who’s experienced such a past. ” I don’t begrudge anyone a ‘past’ as long as it actually *is* the past. I have never gotten the feeling from Hugo that he owns what he’s done, instead I get the feeling he uses feminism to deflect personal responsibility onto things that aren’t his fault, namely his maleness and how the patriarchy has made… Read more »
If it is I can live with it…
ditto
Thanks for the clarification, Paul. Now that you’ve cleared up the fact that unless an MRA writer or blogger is “remotely prominent,” wishing physical harm on feminist collaborators, it doesn’t count. This will be thrilling news for the hundreds of less than “remotely prominent” feminist writers and bloggers who have been tearing apart Tom and Hugo Schwyzer, since their lack of “prominence” means nothing they say or do counts,. Considering that feminists have no problem making that same demand for proof when asking someone to name a feminist that has some negative opinion I don’t see a problem with that.… Read more »
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2007/10/explainer-whats-mra.html
…….are MRAs concerned about anything other than raping and beating women? …
Let me add THIS link to show how feminists are talking about men’s rights activists…
Hi Paul, do you have a list of popular MRA websites. I’ve heard mostly bad of MRA sites but wasn’t exactly sure which ones are considered leaders in the field. I hear all of these terrible things of MRA sites but haven’t actually seen much except a few stray comments mentioned, but I have seen some pretty damn misandrist feminist sites that make me question their sanity eg, radfemhub. On a side note, did any more get written on the Aussie “The Plan” document? The original document is quite a long read and a cliff notes would be awesome. Thanks.… Read more »
Yes, I wrote three articles about the situation in Australia. Two of them are on my web site, but you can also find all three of them at AVFM as well. I’ll also be on the show Dad’s on the Air in a couple weeks to talk more about it.
Thank-you, I’ll check them out. Gotta love Australia….I want new politicians!:P
Hi Paul,
It’s been awhile since I was on your great site. I hope you’re well. Tinkerbell above may well be reaching for the stars when he made that comment. Perhaps he is grasping at the occasional comment by some extremist individual person speaking on behalf of only their-self
It does seem like Tom got himself some instant street cred with MRAs just by virtue of being beaten up on Twitter. It’s a bit weird but what the heck, right?
GirlWritesWhat is very interesting and articulate. It would be very cool if you could get her to write something for GMP. It is true she is a libertarian but we are none of us perfect. 🙂
From where I’m sitting, I see the radfems and the MRAs as being two ends of the same snake.
I second that!
One end sees a movement entirely composed of Zoe saldana & Andrea Dworkin followers the other seen an all powerful collective of Ted Bundy worshipers.
Zoe Saldana is a radfem?
Holy-Moly! Meant to say Valerie Solanas….(were was my head?!…oh yeah..on Zoe Saldana)
Anyway Down with the Gender War! Down with the “BLOOD and CRIP- IZATION” of Romance! Up WITH PEOPLE!
I thought she was more of a resistance fighter?:P
Then you need to stand-up, grab a pair of binoculars and take a closer look at the diverse spectrum of MRAs. You recognize radfems as the extremists of feminism yet you lump all MRAs into one group profile? That tells us much about you.
You need to do a little more reading Michael , MRA’s stand for gender equity.
Radfems on the other hand stand for separation of the sexes and eradication of men.
They have no interest in this discussion because they see all men as bad and irrelevant, well perhaps some could be good by enabling them to achieve segregation and eradication.
I agree. I wish she wrote for the GMP as well.
“On the issue of rape culture I obviously got myself into plenty of hot water by resisting the belief that all men should be treated as rapists until proven otherwise and only men can prevent rape”
Tom, If its possible to get into trouble by “resisting the belief that all men should be treated as rapists” – how can you fail to grasp that those whose favour you’d lose for those sentiments do not constitute a hate movement.
“Tom, If its possible to get into trouble by “resisting the belief that all men should be treated as rapists” – how can you fail to grasp that those whose favour you’d lose for those sentiments do not constitute a hate movement.”
That’s a scary thought, luckily not all feminists believe in it though. More I think use “potential” rapist, aka Schrodinger’s rapist though some do not believe in any of it.
All girls and women are “potential” false rape accusers of boys and men.
Thanks for keeping this important conversation going even when some people try to turn it into a shouting match.
Tom – you said yourself you’re not a big hitter when it comes to debate and rhetoric. Your a big heart guy.
Some love to debate – and they enjoy mass debate across the net even more. They measure value in word counts and comments – you do it by heart.
Guess why people are still here, and new faces arriving day by day!
Onwards! P^)
This is a beautiful, articulate fair statement of life-intent, Tom. Nice work. Well done.