Trigger warning for discussion of boundary violations.
Once again, I’m pondering the definition of “creep” and the creation of a Reasonable Person Standard…
(Obvious Disclaimer, again: if you ever feel creeped out by a situation, the first thing to do is to get out of the creepy situation through whatever means you find necessary. Sometimes creepy is kyriarchial, but sometimes it’s The Gift of Fear, and it’s almost impossible to tell which is which in the moment.)
After reading through the last thread on creepiness and thinking some more about it, I think genuinely creepy behavior (as opposed to kyriarchially creepy behavior) essentially falls into four categories. These categories will be illustrated using Pat and Robin; Pat uses Spivak pronouns (ey, em, eir) and Robin zie/hir, which will either show that creepy is gender-neutral or that the creepiest people on the planet are non-binaries.
Boundary violations. Probably the most common form of creepy behavior I’ve experienced. Robin says “I wouldn’t like to talk to you”; Pat keeps talking to zir. Robin says “stop following me”; Pat keeps following zir. Robin says “please stop asking me out, I don’t want to go out with you”; Pat says, “come on, give me a chance.”
Other people’s boundaries are sacred; the only ethical thing is to respect them. To do otherwise is the epitome of creepy.
Of course, the problem with this behavior is that boundaries are often established non-verbally. For instance, Robin might express that zie doesn’t want to talk to Pat by shrinking away from em, responding to zir in monosyllables and staring fixedly away from em. However, this might also be the behavior of someone who is shy and socially awkward. If you’re uncertain of someone’s boundaries, I’d recommend asking. (I’d also support asking if you’re not sure if someone wants your company– a simple “want to chat? These bus stops are so boring” is a lot less creepy than just starting in on how the other person is the most beautiful person you’ve ever seen. Of course, this is advice from a person who is really bad at reading other people’s boundaries and feelings, so take it with all necessary salt grains.)
Behavior that assumes a relationship that isn’t present. This section could also be called “emotional boundary violations.” Essentially, most cultures have a set of behavior that is appropriate for people who have a certain relationship, and violating these norms may be creepy. My favorite example is Laundry Day from Dr. Horrible.
Do not do this song! It is a very good song and I always sing it to myself when I’m doing laundry. However, it is also unutterably creepy. You can’t be in love with her, Dr. Horrible! You have, in fact, never talked to her! Your knowledge of her is based on her looking like Felicia Day which is, while a point in any girl’s favor, not exactly the basis for a romantic relationship!
Objectification. Objectification is a very commonly misunderstood term. It does not mean “being attracted to people,” the way it is sometimes used; it means “treating people as objects.” For instance, if Pat were to view Robin primarily as a means of obtaining free rides and occasional meals, while not actually liking Robin as a person, that would be objectifying.
If Pat is approaching eir conversations with Robin with a “so, you should fuck me! I do not care about you as a person except insofar as you can give me sex” attitude, that is probably going to be creepy. (Note that there are some cruising environments where that attitude is acceptable.) In general, in my experience, “looking for cool people to hang out with and then if it turns into sex cool” is a far less creepy attitude than “I’m basically just here to get sex and if it’s a reasonably attractive warm body it’s fine by me, no matter how obnoxious that body is.”
Threatening behavior. This is the very obvious one. Essentially, it is If Pat calls Robin a “bitch” or a “fag” for not talking to em, that is creepy. If Pat starts talking about how ey is totally capable of beating people up, no seriously, ey took a bunch of martial arts classes and is willing to smack anyone who looks at em twice, that is creepy. If Pat pushes Robin up against a wall and crowds into zir personal space, that is creepy (and also a boundary violation! Twofer!).
I really like this guide because it helped me understand some of my experiences, which otherwise confused me. There was this old guy in a gym setting that kept talking to me and it was creeping me out and I wasn’t sure why at first. It wasn’t creepy in a sexual way and I felt bad about it because I thought I was being judgmental when I should have been supportive of an elderly guy being in the gym. And after I read this guide I realized that I was creeped out personally because he was objectifying me. Specifically, he… Read more »
@Rachel, thank you very much for explaining men’s experiences to them in such a succinct, matter-of-fact manner. Obviously, no unattractive man has ever been labeled a creep for any reason other than things that were completely his fault, caused entirely by his own inappropriate behavior. Such as sitting in a chair drinking a cup of coffee, which is totally inappropriate if a guy is ugly, old, disabled, etc. Anyway, we’ve already been over this dead horse…
[i]”Besides, what exactly is “creepy” about an unattractive guy repeatedly asking you out versus, say, a very attractive guy repeatedly asking you out? I’m pretty sure that if it was a handsome man from your favorite boy band repeatedly asking you out, the most you would say is that it’s disrespectful, or you might be inclined to do what some women do and brag to your boyfriend about how desirable you are to other guys and call them your “friends.”[/i] Golly, i don’t know. Maybe the fact the woman is attracted to the (gasp!) attractive and not attracted to the… Read more »
This is gonna be vaguely off topic because I read the whole comment thread several days ago & I’m not sure where it’s gone since then, but I just noticed an example of both a woman & a man being described pretty much equivalently as “creeping”–here a verb meaning ‘seeking out people to cheat with’ (or just plain cheating?) http://www.stfucouples.com/day/2011/09/29 — in the lower left, and then upper right of the screenshot. kristy: “i know…its a nasty habit, but so is creepin with another girls man” jennifer: “bitch aint gonna be able to creep no more when im done with… Read more »
Clarence:
I, personally, would prefer that creepy behavior be defined as threatening behavior one example of which would be violating clearly expressed boundaries. Threatening “my social position” is not threatening in the sense that I’m talking about.
I can dig that. A precise definition of what is creepy would be a whole lot better than the current system of lumping the socially awkward and the socially low status with the jerks that violate boundaries.
@Ozy, I hope you can see the last two comments for what they are. Neither one of those two women have an actual need for the term to describe something specific, it is just a hateful pejorative. Imagine if it was some guy saying something like, “So shut up slut! Get the hell out of my face and stop acting like you know me,” and this was their justification for why they need the word “slut.” Imagine a guy defending his use of the word “whore” on the basis that it’s not his job to make everyone feel comfortable. Imagine… Read more »
I can’t tell a low-status man from a high-status one (if such classifications actually can exist), but I can tell a man who makes me feel comfortable from a man that does not. I really don’t give a rat’s ass if some not-nice girl hurt some ‘nice guy’s’ feelings however long ago. It doesn’t have a damn thing to do with me anyway. I’m just trying to get through my damn day here. I will tell you what’s really at work here: the expectation that women must make everyone feel comfortable, and there’s hell to pay if they can’t or… Read more »
Judging other people’s feeling as creepy is wrong, (but also not a violation of anyone’s rights or creating a “thoughtcrime.” Having a negative opinion about any aspect of a person is not violating their rights in some way.) Judging other people’s belief systems as creepy is a necessary survival tool, especially for women. If some guy who doesn’t know me claims to be in love with me, and I think that’s creepy and that he’s a creep, it’s not because of what he feels. It’s partly because of his actions (ie communicating that to me in some way) And partly… Read more »
“Barry, readers of Batman comics are hardly the representative population that I would look at to observe heteronormative behavior.”
Please, not the cliché that even Heroes got out that, besides Seth green apparently, all comic book persons are 1) men 2) nerdy 3) awkward and ugly 4) would beg any woman present to even listen to them, let alone date them. Sometimes they add 5) shy on top.
Question to other commenters: do you hunt? Are you an outdoorsperson? Or do you have cats? I ask because “creep” is how predators sneak up on prey, doing so ever-so-slowly and quietly, while pretending not to so as not to alarm the prey (which would escape). That’s why the term “creep” came about—it was already in use to describe the predatory practice of edging up to prey. It describes actual physical behavior. EasilyEnthused: There isn’t—and won’t be—consensus over use of the term “creep”, just as there isn’t (and won’t be) over use of the term “bitch” (including in overtly feminist… Read more »
I’ve been following this entire thread – and I don’t even know why you guys are still talking. Creep has the same problems as other words in our language. For example, thug. In upstate NY, where I grew up, a “thug” is a non-racist term, although it is classist and ageist. A “thug” is any young man who gives the impression that they engage in criminal activities. But now that I live in the south, the term is nothing but a socially-correct term for “young, male n****er.” There is no magic way to divine what a person means if you… Read more »
Ok, my final post on this: I really dislike what feminists have tried (with partial success) to do to the label “Nice Guy”. Yes, it’s true there are differences between the two types and some enlightened feminists will state which one they are talking about, but using the exact same terminology to describe two different things causes nothing but confusion. As someone who was of the boring but socially awkward persuasion, who was often considered “nice” , I really hate being lumped in with manipulative men. There’s an example of females policing (more to the point, messing with) language, Amp.… Read more »
The best words to say “made me feel uncomfortable” is “made me feel uncomfortable”. Here’s the problem with that: in my community (midwestern, urban, working class), the most common use of the word “uncomfortable” is for physical discomfort, not mental (because in my community, physical discomfort is a daily fact of life—physical work breaks a body down, eventually). “But how? He hasn’t even touched you! (made you physically uncomfortable)”. And if I say, “Mentally uncomfortable”, I’m going to get a lecture on how I need to toughen up. Because where I’m from, basic Streetwise 101 (gender-neutral) is: never show fear… Read more »
Sorry, didn’t see ballgames post before I posted. What he said. f. says: “@dungone, sorry, but it just isn’t anyone’s job to manage the feelings of people who have fallen in love with us.” No, but it’s everyone’s responsibility to avoid causing other people unnecessary harm when they don’t have to. “Easy for you to say that if people didn’t try to emotionally use people with a crush, then the crush wouldn’t progress to the point where people have to do things like switch up their shifts at work or quit social activities. But frankly, that’s blaming the victims of… Read more »
Amp: “And you really do seem to be endorsing a huge double standard when it comes to men and women expressing what they feel. When it comes to men, you say we should be extremely hesitant to ever judge them for an expression of their feelings; with women, on the other hand, you’re quick to judge them negatively for expressing their feelings in ways MRAs don’t approve of.” There is a difference that I think has been overlooked. A man who believed that he is in love and says so is saying something about himself. A woman who is creeped… Read more »
OK, I’m now finding this exchange as tiresome as some others have said earlier, so I’ll try to be brief before bowing out, Barry: “That creeped me out.” An expression of a feeling. I haven’t called for banning this. “That was creepy.” A labeling of someone else’s behavior. In practical terms, it functions as something midway between labeling a person and expressing a feeling. I haven’t called for banning this, as long as the person saying it would find it true regardless of the status of the person doing the behavior that’s being labeled creepy. “He’s a creep.” This is… Read more »
@dungone, sorry, but it just isn’t anyone’s job to manage the feelings of people who have fallen in love with us. Easy for you to say that if people didn’t try to emotionally use people with a crush, then the crush wouldn’t progress to the point where people have to do things like switch up their shifts at work or quit social activities. But frankly, that’s blaming the victims of inappropriate behavior. In plenty of situations, it’s practically required to stay on civil terms with someone – you can’t just stop seeing someone for a year unless you quit your… Read more »
Hmmm, well, I’m of the opinion that “creepy” has been abused (mostly by arrogant women, but some men as well) to the point where it is now just a bigoted slur, no matter what context its used in. You have to look at the history… it’s like trying to find “acceptable usage” of “nig*er” or “ch*nk”.
@barry warkentin: “Here’s my problem with banning ‘creepy’: I think that people (disproportionately but not entirely women) legitimately need a word that means ‘made uncomfortable, especially in a sexual manner.’ ” The best words to say “made me feel uncomfortable” is “made me feel uncomfortable”. Regardless if you want to talk about your feelings you shouldn’t be putting labels on others. People who ask me for directions in cars are not creepy. I could say they might make me feel creeped out, but not that they are creepy. Or are you saying that anyone who asks me for directions in… Read more »
“We can cue that famous video about talking to someone about having done a racist thing, rather than being a racist. ” Another Jay Smooth fan? High five! —- Also, may I attempt mediate the discussion between Amp and ballgame? It is indeed wrong (in the sense of incorrect, not immoral) to say that feelings, any feelings, are wrong (in the sense of immoral, not incorrect); however it is not wrong to say what Dr. Horrible is doing in that video is creepy because he’s not just having feelings, he’s singing about his feelings. Yes this is just a device… Read more »
“Having feelings that are never acted on or expressed is never a problem, imo.” I’m glad we agree! I think we agree on the practical matter, but probably we could parse out disagreements. For instance, I don’t think it’s necessarily a “problem” when a fictional character is a creep. It’s only fiction, after all. But I do think it could be okay for a reader to think that a fictional character is a creep, even if we make that judgement based only on what the narrator tells us about the fictional character’s private thoughts. From what you’ve said here about… Read more »
“Yes, and yes. Is this seriously a “challenge”? Do some of you folks just never run into creepy women?” Quite often and that was not my question. I asked if this creepy behavior gets labeled creepy. this is analogous to asking if you or anyone you know has ever heard a male boss called domineering or castrating or ball-cutting. the chances are close ot zero. But those are the labels used on awoman and on her behavior if she acs exactly the same way. That is gendering. That is what I am asking. Adn I agree, roofie jokes are grounds… Read more »
I’d like to make the meta-observation here that we seem to be caught in the noun versus adjective vortex. Derogatory nouns tend to label a whole person, tend to shame and stick globally to that person, and promote stigma. Examples: he is a creep, he is a failure, he is a Nice Guy – TM, and so forth. In general I am against the use of stigmatizing nouns that reference a whole person. They fall under the “general attribution fallacy,” they ignore context, they promote and reinforce self-destructive and depressive thinking. Now, adjectives that describe behavior can have some of… Read more »
Barry, readers of Batman comics are hardly the representative population that I would look at to observe heteronormative behavior. I was answering a question that was specifically about my own social circles, not about a representative population of heterosexuals. In my social circles, most people read comics. Catwoman is a very gothic character, basically a living dead girl with 9 lives and a boatload of fetish. Pretty much what it takes before a girl can qualify to get called creepy. Doesn’t matter how many guys have a comic-crush on her. What was the last Catwoman comic you read? You sound… Read more »
Debating this further seems pointless to me. Just as women are still going to continue calling men creeps tomorrow, I’ll probably continue to consider them assholes (and calling them that) for doing so.
Sometimes there are opposite opinions on a subject that are never reconciled. Part of that is what life is about.