This is a comment by Brian on the post “In Praise of Small Breasted Women“.
“I’m sure part of it is to do with the way our culture tells women to cover their breasts. A woman can’t go walking around with a completely bare chest, because we’ve created a connection between breasts and sex.”
Great quote. I honestly think men (and women) wouldn’t have such an obsession with certain body parts if they weren’t so taboo. I’m straight, but I can’t help but be turned on by bare breasts, ass, or vulva, despite the fact that I have my own. I think men would be far less transfixed with nipples if they just saw more.
Photo credit: Flickr / C.P. Storm
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I’m not really sure I see the problem here – for many people nipples are erogenous zones, so isn’t it only natural that they play a part in sexual attraction? Desexualizing *everything* is unnatural… and no fun! I think the fact that we are all hopelessly horny for each other is part of what makes the human experience beautiful.
While covering the body does often add an illicit erotic mystique. Im not completely sure that obsession over body parts would disappear if everyone walked around naked. I dont believe that obsession over body parts diminishes substantially in the naturist or nudist community (I can never remember which is which, i apologise).
I think of the commentary Ive read from naturist or nudist community online. Where they explain that desensitisation to being around naked people happens very quickly, infact often within a day. That it is the context in which nudity is presented that causes sexual arousal
eg. seeing a naked person shopping – no arousal. seeing that same naked person in a sexual environment like a nightclub – sexual arousal
[Im not a part of that community, so i am happy to be corrected by member of that community.]
So while the ‘forbidden fruit’ trigger of seeing an unsheathed body part may die. The other triggers which cause desire for that same body part would live on.
another point ti add, is that women walk around freely in shoes that expose their feet, that hasnt reduced the eroticism of feet to straight men into women’s feet
The author has clearly never heard of 4chan.
Or the fact that the internet has been around for two decades now, and men still love staring at breasts.
Do you stare at sunsets?…a beautiful picture?…you’re child at play?…Same thing with breasts, except staring at breasts and the entire female form has been socially outlawed. Ahhh, what a loss.
This reminds me of a line from the show “Cheers” — Diane is telling Sam that he should be less obsessed with sex and she says, “What does sex have to do with a sunset? Or mountains? Or a newborn baby? …. Ok, forget the last one.”
The difference is that a sunset isn’t totally creeped out by your leering?
Noticing and leering are not the same thing. Thankfully, most attractive women understand the difference. In fact, rather than being “creeped out”, they like the attention.
the difference between “leering” and “noticing” is simply the amount of time looking. You don’t “notice” a sunset, you stand (or sit) there for a good 15 min and stare (or “leer”) at it. Luckily it won’t punch you in the face and call you a sexist pig for looking at it so long
Look up Desmond Morris, study the differences between human breasts and those of other primates, and then try telling me that link between breasts and sex is created by modern society. Because to anyone who understands evolutionary biology, that claim is just absurd.
I just want to argue many women find male’s chest attractive, but society doesn’t require them to cover up. I know the intent of this article is completely different from what I’m gleaning from this post and all these comments, but to me all boils down to prudishness. At the same time, however, look at the face shapes of humans compared to primates. The face shapes of primates are flatter, so of course breast size doesn’t need to be that big. If human women had flat chests, infants would practically suffocate trying to feed, so breasts in that sense don’t just serve a sexual purpose as many people are wont to believe. Protruding breasts allow infants to easily feed without being suffocated.
Whoa, first time I’ve heard that. Great point wrt suffocation, totally never thought of that.
I wonder. Could it be that a lot of people find this to be true but simply do not want to go through those “growing pains”? Hear me out.
I think men would be far less transfixed with nipples if they just saw more.
In order for that to happen there is undoubtedly going to be a period in which women would be bare chested out in public freely and there would be a lot of men staring at a lot of women. Now I’m not saying that this staring is alright (and rude commentary and touching would most certainly not be alright) but said staring is almost certain to happen.
I’m just wondering if people (probably women mostly) are thinking that its possible that we just wake up one morning and POOF! It would be acceptable for women to go around topless and there would be no staring or fixation. I think this is going to be something like the idea of having mixed gender crews on subs. Its for the greater good but the transition is going to be difficult. And I wonder if that difficult transition is part of what keeps people from wanting to do it.
Agreed, I think you have to grow up in a culture where breasts have no sexual connotation and I think in our culture, breasts will continue to have a sexual connotation for the foreseeable future.
All cultures have standards of modesty even if those standards differ. The most parts are usually kept covered even if it’s just a tiny loin cloth or grass skirt.
And personally, the thought of walking around topless sounds cold and uncomfortable!
*the most SEXUALIZED parts are kept covered
Not sure how that disappeared from my text…. Hazards of cutting and pasting on an iPad
Apparently, from reading all the posts about breasts and size preference, there is a lot of power and mystery in the magic of covering and uncovering women’s breasts…men can’t seem to get enough of them from all the money that goes into porn and flashy magazines with varying amounts of cleavage on the cover….I suppose that’s what makes the world go round! Too much is never enough (at least, that’s what it seems to me!)
The problem with porn is that the breasts shown belong to beautiful women and are presented in sexual manner. If men would see breasts in casual, non-sexual ways on not so good-looking and ugly females and in day-to-day life, they won’t be so obsessed about them. Like men also like seeing sexy legs on attractive women but are they so obsessed with legs that they would just about do anything to see them? The answer is no because women’s legs can be seen nearly everywhere
…its called national geographic.
I disagree with the assertion that if we saw more nipples we’d not be attracted to them, mostly. If you are contending that the entire culture adopted toplessness as a norm (i.e. Stereotypical African tribes) then I miht agree, though there may be others factors involved in a culture not sexualizing the breast. But in our porn saturated culture, do we not see more than enough nipple? I’m married, I see boobs every single day. And it’s still awesome.
It used to be that a woman’s neck and ankles were considered sexy and were hidden. Women wore high collars and long skirts to hide them. Guys, are you turned on by necks and ankles or are they so commonly seen that you don’t even notice them? Couldn’t the same happen with breasts?
I agree with this article. I am from India. Showing a woman’s breast( most of her body for that matter) is completely taboo in my country. Even in our A( adult-rated) movies breasts are never shown unlike your equivalent R-rated movies. If a woman’s breasts are seen by anyone other than her husband and other women she can be shamed to the extent that she can even contemplate suicide. Women are stripped naked and paraded in some of our villages as a form of punishment. This is considered as the ultimate punishment in our society for women. Such is the fascination with breasts.
Hence, I believe that the obsession with female breasts needs to at least reduce if not completely go away. This will happen only when people, especially men, get to see more of them. Breasts shown in porn movies are not really going to help our cause as they mostly belong to attractive women and are shown in sexual ways. What we require is that breasts which belong to more average and unattractive women are shown. And this has to start with media like films and T.V. Cause we all know that media and cinema can make or break a trend. Also, breasts must be shown in more casual and non-sexual ways.
Of course this won’t mean that men will no longer be attracted to breasts. We Women see shirtless men all the time. But still we are attracted to the good-looking ones showing their body and feel repulsed by seeing unattractive men shirtless. Showing more breasts will simply reduce the taboo associated with them. Of course this does not mean that all women must now go topless everywhere. This will just give women the sort of freedom that men enjoy today. Like a man can go shirtless whenever he wants to and when the occasion needs it. Same should be possible with women too.
At the least, if this fascination with breasts is reduced somewhat I(and countless other girls in my country) won’t have to face the trauma of not having a day gone by where we step out of our house and not have to deal with lewd men staring at our breasts and passing cheap comments as if we are some sort of objects
“… we’ve created a connection between breasts and sex.”
Don’t think so.
The breasts are “sexual” in themselves, because they are erogenous per se. So they’re quite different from culturally-sexualized body parts, like ankles or legs.
In other words, the connection between breasts and sex has always been there, because of biology.
OTOH, the more hidden or “forbidden” a body part is, the more it looks exciting and is emotionally charged.
So yes, men would be way less enthralled by women’s breasts, if they were freely exposed. But they would still find breasts “yummy”.
Um, that delicious pit under our arms is also an erogenous zone. So is the mouth, neck, ears, face and many others. Sure, some are ‘more erogenous’ than others but to say the function of the breast as purely sexual because it happens to be an erogenous zone is a misnomer. I, thankfully, don’t have to hide my neck when I leave the house, even though it is, personally, one of the most stimulating places on my body. You say “men would be way less enthralled by women’s breasts, if they were freely exposed. But they would still find breasts “yummy”” and that’s exactly the point. No one’s asking anyone to disregard the breast entirely or to stop finding it sexually attractive. I find men’s arms ridiculously attractive, and their chests, and their legs, yet because I know men’s arms and chests come in all shapes and sizes because I see them almost every day, I don’t lose control of my functions and stare at them with my tongue out when I spot a set of arms I’m particularly attracted to. Do you see what I’m getting at? We are bizarrely simultaneously overrun with images of ‘perfect’ breasts on billboards and in porn – where they are airbrushed, perfected, and often presented ONLY in a sexual context. Boobs are many many things. If we all – and I include women here – saw more of them in all their varying forms we could slowly begin to eradicate the notion of the perfect breast (as an objective claim, not as a subjective one) freeing women – especially teenage girls – from sometimes cripplingly low self-esteem and freeing men from the childish, guilt-ridden or sexist responses that seeing a pair of breasts can often engender. It could also do a lot for breast-feeding mothers who have to put up with either quiet disdain or creepy voyeurism.
I agree with Daggles on the neck thing. My neck is FAR more of an erogenous zone than my breasts, although I’m currently quite pleased with the aesthetics of my breasts (hence, there isn’t an issue of embarrassment or insecurity). A touch, a breath, or a bite or my neck sends shivers through my whole body without fail and turns me on quite a bit. A breast grope or touch is fine, but doesn’t quite compare.
I know a moderator will jump all over my comment, because ite seems that whenever a female defends females, this blog site takes offense. Stop trying to get the women of the world to expose their breasts!! Enough already. Why don’t you men show your testicles oreeven your penises. The breasts are different for a reason and God does not intend for a woman to give up her private breasts, and stop being modest, to anyone except medical persons and mate. And yes to those who are wondering, the breast is not meant to show as it is for the woman to breastfeed her baby and give delight or pleasure to her mate. Stop trying to get us naked.!!!! Why don’t you all go nude sometimes!! Can I get someone to see and understand this???
Stop trying to get the women of the world to expose their breasts!!
Last time I checked it wasn’t about getting women to expose their breasts but rather women having the option to go bare chested if they wish free of harassment.
Why don’t you men show your testicles oreeven your penises.
I personally wouldn’t do that but some other guy does then more power to him. But anyway how did we go from topless women to bottomless men? Wouldn’t that analog be topless men?
The breasts are different for a reason and God does not intend for a woman to give up her private breasts, and stop being modest, to anyone except medical persons and mate
God also did not intend for homosexual relationships, working on the sabbath, or for a woman to not be submissive to her husband from what I understand.
And yes to those who are wondering, the breast is not meant to show as it is for the woman to breastfeed her baby and give delight or pleasure to her mate.
I was of the mind to leave that up to the owner of the breasts in question to decide.
Stop trying to get us naked.!!!! Why don’t you all go nude sometimes!!
I don’t want to go nude sometimes but that’s not the point. The point is there are women that want to be able to go topless free of harassment and since the harassment is not their fault why should they not be able to?
Can I get someone to see and understand this???
Maybe if you would understand that this is not some evil male oppression plot to force women to go around topless.
Damn I thought you were here to defend women on this…
@Jean: “whenever a female defends females”
You didn’t defend females, you shamed both men, and women who might want to expose their breasts.
@Jean: “Why don’t you men show your testicles oreeven your penises.”
No problem to me. But, if I did, I’m pretty sure you wanted me arrested.
@Jean: “Stop trying to get us naked.!!!!”
Relax. We don’t want you naked, and we don’t care about your breasts.
So, feeling a little better now?
@Jean: “Can I get someone to see and understand this???”
We have no problem in understanding YOUR position. But it’s just that, YOUR position; nothing more.
The problem is, you would the like the whole world to adapt to your position.
You’d like to rule the world; do you think you are God?
I did not use profane language and since the moderators allowed you to do that, then let me fill your ears! !Wash your nasty cussing mouth. Your answers are like jello….wobbly. Besides, they are full of weak male desperation to persuade weak females to strip. Are you that horny and desperate?? You need to find something better to do with your time, than to join other wet, drooling, mouthmales who need to see bare breasts to survive. I
Do you enjoy trying to use sexuality to shame him? “That horny and desperate”. Maybe if you read his reply you’d notice it’s about giving women THE OPTION to go topless. You think breasts should be private? Good for you, cover your chest for all we care. But don’t push your morals onto other people and assume they need to follow the teachings of your version of a god’s teaching. What gives YOU the right to dictate actions to others and restrict their behaviour? Your answer is full of religious shaming and desperate attempts to control others behaviour according to your beliefs. You need something better to do with your time vs shaming others into your own world view. People are different, not everyone follows the same teachings, there are a lot of cultures, religions, etc so which one is the right way to live?
@Archy: “which one is the right way to live?”
For people like Jean, “MINE!!!” is the obvious answer – and the ONLY possible one.
(other possibilities are not even considered)
Some people just love thinking they’re the Master of the Universe.
Wow, methinks you doth protest too much. You’ve internalized so much shame about your body, and those of others, and I think it really isn’t healthy. You’d best steer clear of San Francisco, New York City, and pretty much all of Western Europe where female toplessness is permissible.
I’m wondering where in your bible it says a woman’s breasts are not to be uncovered. Off the top of my head, I don’t recall any passages that specifically relate to this. Would you be kind enough to refresh my memory?
And are you really in a tizzy because someone wrote ‘damn’ in their response? Or am I missing some other part that contained “nasty cussing?”
You are not at all even trying to defend any female. You are in fact labeling all females as sex objects whose breasts are meant to be ogled at and males as desperate, horny creatures. And what’s more you actually want this trend to continue! Women like you enjoy being perceived as weak, vulnerable and sex objects to men. Just look at the success of twilight series among girls. Now imagine a similar movie about a weak and mopey guy, who has no other quality besides being young and attractive, and who needs constant protection from others to survive but is still considered as the most eligible bachelor by all the girls. Would such a movie ever work? Never. Why? Because men do not think of such characters as their role models and they do not want society to view them as weak and sex objects. But unfortunately, some of the women like you do.
What we are discussing here is to provide power to women to go topless as and when they desire without having to face harassment. But you somehow came to the conclusion that this is some male agenda to see women as topless. Well let me inform you that most of the people who have replied in agreement to the above discussion are, me included, women. And even the men who are replying are thinking more about women’s welfare than you are. Because we believe in equality. If men have the right to go topless so should we. Nobody is forcing you or anyone else to go topless. It must be the right of an individual to decide what he or she needs to wear or not. And since when has breasts become the equivalent of testicles or penis? This topic is about being topless not bottomless. At least read the topic properly before starting to write your prejudiced views.
And what’s that you say “weak male desperation to persuade weak females to strip”? I sometimes really wonder how come some women live in such illusions? You really think all the male commentators are here just to persuade you and other females to strip so that they can view some breasts? Are they really that insane to waste their time persuading someone on a feminist based site to show something that is so instantly available to see, not to forget in perfectly beautiful and sexual form too, on google or anywhere on internet? Actually I know what is the problem of Women like you. You have low self-confidence about your body hence you don’t want to show it to too many people to judge. And you also don’t like the idea that your man might be able to see more female nudity from other women in general and judge you if women have the freedom of going topless. But you know what as I have said above if your man, or any man, just wants to see some breasts he can see it even now thanks to porn and prostitution and many other ways and you can do absolutely nothing about that other than making men blind. So come out of your delusions and try to view yourself and other women as equal to men and not as vulnerable sex toys.
…wait, is this a feminist based site?
If you read through the Bible, you will find there is nowhere in it that nudity is prohibited. God never said the human body is shameful. We are God’s “workmanship” or “masterpiece”. The only thing you are supposed to be ashamed of is sin. There are several mentions of people being nude in the Bible but none of them are rebuked in any way. (King Saul, King David, Isaiah, Peter, etc.)
Jean, I’m nude around the house all the time and vacation at nudist camps. I see guys and gals nude a lot at camp. No one is aroused by seeing other people nude. It’s a lot less sexually charged at camp than in the “real” world of hiding behind cloth. How is it that a piece of cloth can change me from being objectionable to being acceptable? is the cloth more important than the person? A piece of cloth is acceptable without a person, but a person is not acceptable without a piece of cloth. Suppose you rented a house and was told you may go into every room except the room at the top of the stairs to the left. Which door of a dozen doors would occupy your thoughts? The same is true with the human body. Hide certain parts and that’s what people obsess about. I wouldn’t mind walking down the street nude if it was permitted. It’s this society that has sexualized the body. Maybe we need to start a campaign that says, “Being human is not a crime.”
Actually, there are passages in the bible that refer to nudity, but most are within the context of sexual intercourse. For example, a common prohibition in the bible is “uncovering someone’s nakedness” which is generally accepted to mean exposing the genitalia for the purposes of sexual intercourse. There is also reference to the shame Adam and Eve felt at their being naked, and how they covered themselves (Gen 3:7) and later are clothed by god (Gen 3:21). I don’t recall a specific reference to breasts, however, as needing to be covered.
So, “uncover the nakedness” can mean, “have sex with”. So, you shouldn’t have sex with your sister, mother, aunt, etc. Seeing someone nude isn’t sexual. You don’t see air brushed, anorexic gals at nudist camps. You see real people. Overweight, moles, warts, scars and all. You learn that there is no such thing as a perfect body. It does help a person’s self esteem.
As for Adam and Eve, they were ashamed of their sin. That’s why they stuck leaves to themselves and hid among the leaves. They were camouflaging themselves. Their coats of animal skins were the first sacrifice for sin. It also taught them how to make coats for themselves for the bad weather they would encounter. If the coats were to tell them to hide their bodies, then that means husbands and wives shouldn’t see each other naked. Adam and Eve were the only people on the planet. Who where they supposed to hide from? Each other? God can see through animal skins so it’s obvious they weren’t hiding from Him.
I was just pointing out references in the bible about nakedness and how I’m not aware of any prohibiting toplessness among women. But you’re writing as if that literally happened, when we all know that in the beginning there was a midget, a beer volcano, and a stripper factory.
I used to spend a lot of time at the gym acquiring one myself, now I’m more “meh” because I feel healthy is a more appropriate goal and I’m less concerned about being eye candy for someone else. A few decades of living has taught me that what a body looks like is less important than the person inhabiting that body, and their comfort therein.
No such thing as a perfect body? That’s just quitter talk! ; – )
The proposition: if nipples were more evident, men would be less obsessed with them.
I think that’s probably true to some degree, but it might not make a very big difference.
On the one hand, true, hiding body parts has a way of making those body parts seem more erotic when you manage to see one in public. In the Victorian era when women were expected to cover their ankles and wrists, catching a glimpse of a woman’s wrist or ankle was very thrilling for a lot of men. (“I saw the hair on her forearm. What a slut!”) It’s surprising how much of a non-issue it is today to see young women wearing form-fitting black tights that leave no shape to the imagination. Not nearly as much salivation out there as one would have expected.
On the other hand, making something commonly visible doesn’t totally stop any obsession or eroticism of it. I have been guilty of staring at a woman’s neck or ears for far too long to be socially acceptable, and it’s not because our society demands women never show their necks or ears. I have craned my neck or walked a different direction to catch a glimpse of a woman’s face. And that’s not because faces are taboo.
I think men would be far less transfixed on having sex if the just got more.
Cheers!
“I think men would be far less transfixed on having sex if the just got more.”
Sure!
We always want what we lack more…
Jaysus. We are attracted to breast because and nipples because a) they are beautiful b) they are a turn on. We don’t suddenly get turned on by women’s hands because they wear gloves all year. Is the point if we all walk around naked none of us would find erogenous zones sexual? Is that what we even want? Somehow to me this just seems part of making men feel wrong/bad about finding such a normal part of a woman’s anatomy when it’s function isn’t even sex in the first place. I love nipples. I love looking at them naked and outlined by t-shirts and dresses. It won’t change if women walk around bare-topped and I wouldn’t want it to.
I suspect if women really did wear gloves all year around then women’s hands would become a little more eroticized.Certainly a striptease with gloves would become even more exciting in that case. In a culture where nudity gets very closely related to sexuality, at least.
“I think men would be far less transfixed on having sex if the just got more.”
I don’t think this is as true as that we’d be less likely to jump at the chance for sex with people or in situations that weren’t ideal for us. Men treat sex the same way dogs treat scraps on the street; we’re opportunistic feeders since biologically we don’t know when another opportunity (without our active pursuit ) will come.
Good point.
And, within a particular range, for many men the more sex he has the more he wants. Sometimes the libido increases as the frequency of sex increases. (I’ve heard this is the same for many women as well.)
Excerpt from “Heaven, a novel” – exotic dancer, Eve, expresses her view on nipples:
“Look at the Moulin Rouge in Paris. Whew! There’s a memory! What a fantastic show. Tons of topless dancers in G-strings on stage and an audience full of lovely couples enjoying the show together. The dancers wear no pasties, so it’s nipples and ass, just like we have here, but what a different atmosphere!
What makes that show “legitimate”? The elaborate costumes? The choreographed numbers featuring several dancers? Men take their wives to these shows and they all enjoy without the stigma of being seen wallowing in a moral cesspool. But, hey, Europe has been around a lot longer than we have. They’ve already experienced the Middle Ages. They’re a lot more relaxed and wise in their old age. Americans are still having a problem with nipples.
Of course, self-respecting Americans watch movies and TV shows with scantily clad women in the comfort of their own homes and I’m talking Baywatch here – not porn. And they’re hiding in the private, dark corners of their offices looking at pictures on the Internet. It’s because they need to see it. We need to look at the body. It’s who we are and to deny looking at it is to make us sick and commit strange acts from that sickness.
What if men could come in here with their wives and their wives could enjoy the experience as well? They would have a sexually charged date and go home for some great lovemaking. Let’s face it – beautiful naked bodies are a turn-on.”
http://www.HeavenTheNovel.com
The problem is, Kimberly, that women are supposed to enjoy accompanying their husbands to watch naked women, but ask just ONE MAN to accompany their wife to watch naked MEN and then have hot sex…
One of the funniest episodes of Seinfeld was when Kramer did Elains Christmas card and her nipple was showing ….. Laughed my ass off.