Julie Gillis, on egalitarianism and why feminist women listen to men.
Yesterday at The Good Men Project a writer, Danny, wrote about me in a comment on his post, Treating The Hate, and in this post Why I Believe Men Belong In The Feminist Movement by Emily Heist Moss.
Anyone who knows me knows I’m a liberal, agnostic, feminist. Humanist. LGBTQ and sexuality advocate. Peacemaker, diplomat. Bourbon drinker. Good humored advocate of gettin’ along!
Interestingly, I’ve found myself at a site focused on men, and many well known feminist writers have left that site recently. I’ve found a voice at a site with many people who have some things in common with me, but more not in common. When I first started writing for GMP I honestly thought I’d be more of a polemicist, but I’m finding that my voice isn’t about the poles but a (hopeful) bridge between groups who have such differences. Which is one of those “duh” moments because I’m not much of a polemicist in any part of my life. I just am not and never have been.
You can imagine my surprise when in one comment I was compared and contrasted to a writer and activist I admire, Amanda Marcotte, and I chuckled because I don’t think it’s apples to apples in any way (not that the Danny was comparing me to her, more contrasting, but still. We don’t do the same things). I was a bit surprised, because she is a fierce political writer and speaker on LGBT and reproductive rights, not to mention someone who has built an amazing presence as a writer, speaker and commentator. I’m not. Yet. Again though, we do entirely different work which I think makes his contrasting not quite on the mark. No offense Danny.
He also mentioned that because I listen to men (in regards to MRA issues, and writing for GMP) I’d be seen as a traitor. I think that’s not entirely true, mostly because I firmly believe that feminist women listen to men. I mean, I do. I feel pretty damn sure Amanda does. As do many other amazing feminists I admire. Like Joanna. Like Lisa.
I think the issue isn’t women listening to men, or feminists listening to MRA’s, but how humans do or do not actually listen to each other, how we protect our ideologies fiercely. Because, like I’ve said, cognitive dissonance, ostracism, and shame drive us all to justify all kinds of things. Including fighting each other when we might (just might) have some common goals, even if they aren’t immediately clear.
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I’m a heretic, I suppose, and I’ve always been so. I think ideologies always should be examined, even ones I hold dear. Maybe I will considered a traitor and if so, I guess I’ll deal with it. I’m also pretty sure that I won’t be trusted by most MRAs either. I find plenty to disagree with on that far end of the pole as well. I certainly have read some ugly (to me anyway) stuff on MRA sites.
At this point, my goal isn’t to be trusted so much as it is to understand. Were I to be hired as a consultant or conflict mediator, then I’d have to earn respect and trust on both sides, modeling what I’d hope to engender in the client.
Peace doesn’t mean agreeing. I’m actually a believer that points of view can be wrong and I hold beliefs that I firmly believe are true… (global warming is happening, different races aren’t superior to others, gay people are human beings and their marriages won’t ruin mine, everyone has the right to bodily autonomy, reproductive rights, and to know how their body works). I’m more than willing to look at varying systems of getting to the results that seemingly opposing groups want. Reproductive rights for men and women both? Sure! Let’s talk about it. But we have to actually do some work listening. I don’t believe it’s impossible, I just don’t.
Peace and peace work means realizing that the other person you disagree with is still a human being and as such, worthy of basic rights and respect. Then you move forward to figuring out the rest. There will still be fighting. Hard feelings. Deep frustration and there will be back tracking, mistakes and messing up. Hopefully there will be mutual apologies.
At the minimum you have to acknowledge that your “enemy” is human. If you can’t do that, you’ve already lost. And I get that that sounds kind of spiritual and I just said I was an agnostic? I’m difficult, what can I say?
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I believe this, people want to be heard and seen. Even when we are heard and seen it’s not always interpreted as such. How I see you, may not feel like being seen. We’ve all got intrapersonal stuff (hard, painful stuff) that’s difficult to carry. We bounce our inner stuff against other people’s inner stuff and then there are interpersonal issues as well. Then take those people and place them in systems…Lots to diagnose and examine if we want to actually get to mutually agreed upon results for big problems facing our country.
I want to do that work and that means working with all sides. Right and left, atheist and evangelical, MRA and Feminist. If that makes me a traitor or a heretic, I suppose that’s what I am. I’m not sure I care so long as I can do the work I find compelling.
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photo: ladouseur / flickr
I have so much mail, I wish I’d been on top of this string before now. Better late then never. When someone is saying something, they generally want the listener to, in some way affirm what the person is saying. “I hear what you’re saying but ….” Ahh, the proverbial BUT MONKEY. I’m listening to you but I’m not going to affirm what you’re saying or why you’re saying it. Julie, I very much appreciate your interests and goal but it’s too little too late. A lot of damage has been done and there is no damage control in sight.… Read more »
Tom, I do not ask for your affirmation, nor anyone’s so you are off the hook in that regard :). As for timing, hey, I have learned about most of this in the last year or so, so I can’t offer anything other than what I am doing now. In my 20’s I was focused on theater and LGBT issues, in my 30’s I was focused on theater and sex ed and sex positive issues as well as LGBT issues and it’s been a progression here to this place. Apparently, I’ve missed the boat on work that was being done… Read more »
Thank you for writing this…It is about humans listening to other humans…even if you don’t agree… Our best friends have been married about as long as my husband and I have…their most recent domestic blow-up ended up with the wife and the 2 kids in tears staying at our house for the night….the blow-up was violent and shocking…we notice how the wife and the husband just talk past each other….The strategy to winning an argument is to talk louder and louder and continually repeat yourself until the other side gives up? The way to make your kid do better on… Read more »
Yeah, Humanity is a big pile of chaos leia. Stubborn-ness, pride and violence come on all shades and many women and men. DV knows no boundaries in gender or class. Women are just as likely to abuse kids or men as men are likely to abuse women or kids. I have read story after story on glennsacks and fathers and families about abusive, manipulative wives abusing their husbands and kids too–it’s a real problem. At least your female friend has the law on her side. When women are violent, victimized husbands often have the law on the aggressors side. This… Read more »
Julie,
A tree is known by the fruit it bears. The fruits (misandric dogmas) growing on the tree of feminism has really been bitter for a lost of men. Therefore it is despised by them. I think being heretic is not good enough. You have to apostasize.
Yeah, well I’ll get back to you on that Raps…despise me if you like, I’m happy where I am.
Well I am offering you a way out of your dilemma. But as they say “If you choose not to choose, you still have made a choice.”
Not In a dilemma, I feel quite clear actually.
You have mentioned that feminist women listen to men, which is highly improbable. My experience is that majority of even non-feminist women do not listen to men at all till they get in real messy situation.
He also mentioned that because I listen to men (in regards to MRA issues, and writing for GMP) I’d be seen as a traitor. I think that’s not entirely true, mostly because I firmly believe that feminist women listen to men. Have you ever heard of so called “fun feminists”? That’s what I’ve heard other feminists call those who aren’t taking the apparent “correct and strong” stances such as thinking everything is about that precious patriarchy and that the only good men are to feminism is to support it from the shadows. In fact I’m certain I’ve seen it tossed… Read more »
I guess one thing I’d ask is “what does it mean to be listened to.” One thing I’m noticing in these conversations? People speaking English aren’t speaking the same language all the time. I can listen to you and not agree. You can listen to me and not agree. I can listen to global warming deniers, hear them, and still think they are tremendously misguided people. I can listen to evangelical Christians and still completely disagree with them. I’m trying, personally, to find that spot that is both listening and empathizing but also finding ways to actually interpret between the… Read more »
I guess one thing I’d ask is “what does it mean to be listened to.” One thing I’m noticing in these conversations? People speaking English aren’t speaking the same language all the time. At bare minimum giving someone a fair shot to speak up on a topic without shouting them down just because of one of their characteristics. You are making big strides in the very simple but apparently very difficult way of not disregarding me as a male oppressor that is only interested in protecting my male privilege and securing the right to beat and rape women at my… Read more »
The world is most definitely not saved, and I’d be a fool if I thought my words would make some huge outrageous impact. I’m trying to think longterm here.
I’ll still take that champers though.
Julie writes: “I guess one thing I’d ask is “what does it mean to be listened to.” One thing I’m noticing in these conversations? People speaking English aren’t speaking the same language all the time.” Another alternative is that members of these feminist boards (and Marcotte) react differently when men talk about their own oppression versus women who talk about men’s oppression. If a woman talks about men’s oppression on these boards (to my mind) they would seem a lot less threatening than if a man does. In fact, a self-identifying feminist woman who talks about male oppression hands them… Read more »
Also, frankly, I’d have to clarify and say that there can’t be a global “I listen to men” as if men are a cohesive unit. They aren’t. There are men who do not in any way agree with the MRA stances, and they are men biologically. There are Republican men not listening to Democrat men etc etc.
I’m listening here and I’m listening to the people in my life. And I’m listening as globally online as I can. To women and men both.
Of course men are not a cohesive unit and expecting us all to be listened to would imply that we are just as much as the frequent practice of instantly writing us all off. Obviously you are going to pick and choose who to listen to. I just don’t like the idea that “he’s a man” has become a reason for a lot of feminists to not listen to men’s experiences.
What I mean is that I could easily spend my life listening to progressive liberal feminist men and be able to say “I listen to men.” I’m hearing experiences that don’t sound like yours or Eric M’s or Rapses, or any of the other men I’ve met here. And you, if you met some of the men I’ve known might hear an entirely different experience from them as men. This is the thing. Confirmation bias or what have you, but if I live my whole life hearing apples and then meet you and hear oranges, it’s a stunning experience. I… Read more »
What I mean is that I could easily spend my life listening to progressive liberal feminist men and be able to say “I listen to men.” This is true and is good reason that I should specify what I mean by “listening to men” that I’ve been saying. By “listening to men” I should say listen to men that have experiences that differ from what you would expect or what you are used to hearing. Or simply. Confirmation bias or what have you, but if I live my whole life hearing apples and then meet you and hear oranges, it’s… Read more »
What I mean is that I could easily spend my life listening to progressive liberal feminist men and be able to say “I listen to men.” And to revisit this for a bit I think that’s actually part of the problem. Feminists thinking that they can listen to only one subset of men and think that it counts as listening to men in general. I’m sure listening to progressive liberal feminist men makes female feminists feel all warm and cuddly on the inside because said men will probably not be as direct and dare I say, confrontational, as men who… Read more »
That was my point. I’m sure the men in the feminist movement agree with the women in the feminist movement, just like the women who are aligned with MRA agree with the men and as per your example, MRAs think they are “listening to women.” Republican to Republican and so forth. Confirmation bias made more strong by finding out that people actually don’t agree with you! I doubt people are “cherry picking” so much as they are just in bubbles. We work in bubbles with like minded folks, read blogs by like minded folks and so forth. Given that Google… Read more »
I call it cherry picking because the folks that operate in such bubbles are willing to give people outside the bubble a fair shot…as long as they would meet the criteria of someone that would fit in the bubble, even if they aren’t already in their. FYI, Feminist progressive men are usually ncredibly assertive and direct. It’s really and truly not some kind of amazon woman and mangina man scenario. In fact, I’ve seen feuds because the men in the progressive movement can be so direct and assertive that often the women feel they have to fight harder and louder… Read more »
Julie writes: “FYI, Feminist progressive men are usually ncredibly assertive and direct. It’s really and truly not some kind of amazon woman and mangina man scenario.” Judging by Hugo I would agree. However, most who expect fairness from political advocates had the view that Hugo was incredibly predisposed to see the worst in men. He took very lopsided views. I remember the one in which he talked about the boy crisis movement as similar to racists who wanted jews out of higher education because they performed better than whites. He was incredibly likely to use his glib style and penchant… Read more »
This comment may be unwise, but I have a point. You say Hugo used glibness and hyperbole and that there has been vitriol from feminsm and accusations of pedophila, perversions of the sex drive and twisted haters. When I first came across the MRA and PUA movements I can say I felt the same way. I saw dramatic stories (which I had no way to verify), hyperbole, and comparisons of women to shrikes, dogs and more “women will rue the day” kinds of things, MGTHOW. I’ve seen some horrible things about how men should treat women on PUA sites “lay… Read more »
Julie, Why the attempt to link the MRM to PUA? There is no discernable connection (other than both groups happen to be mostly male). I’m judging feminism by the large clout-wielding, politically active organizations that claim to represent feminists like NOW and AAUW. The hate seems to be ENTRENCHED based on the laws they advocate for, and laws they advocate against and it is most entrenched in THE LEADERS of those orgs. If you compare feminist orgs to MRA orgs there is no contest. NOW and AAUW don’t even hold an egalitarian candle to orgs like fathersandfamilies, radar, save, natl… Read more »
Edit, third to last paragraph should have been:
What PUA had to do with anything as they don’t politically advocate for things (yada yada) is beyond me.
I am not attempting to link, I’m expressing my personal experience as I learned about both groups. This seems hard to express. The intent of my post wasn’t to say, that there were political links between the two, only that I’ve had reactions to what I’ve seen. I know the PUA doesn’t advocate politically. I’m expressing that when I first learned about them, I found their voices to be difficult. When I first read sites like AVFM I found commentary that was hard to listen to. In this comment and the one above, I’m less worried about which org does… Read more »
Julie, A) I guess you’re right. The first step is to let go of the hate. I think that’s something I’m going to have to navigate better. However, a lot of feminists are navigating this much more poorly than I am. The very large majority of good-minded feminists need to start advocating for men, the way men have advocated for women and have a showdown with the 1% to 3% of manhaters who seem to have the reins of power unfettered. 2), I actually think you are an examplary person. I have read your articles on rape of men and… Read more »
Saul, son of Deuteronomy, son of Gackt, you have been found guilty by the elders of the town… of uttering the name of our Lord. And so as a BLASPHEMER!!! you are to be stoned to death!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIaORknS1Dk
Proof that Monty Python is relevant to everything. 🙂
I probably feel as much hostility towards feminists as most feminists feel towards men. When I read your article, at first I was just looking for weaknesses so that I could rip it apart. However, you are completely correct about one thing: “But we have to actually do some work listening.” In the long term you are completely correct, and I have just enough balance in me to see that. However … I don’t think this will work in the short or medium term. Setting asside moral arguments, there is a powerful political reality that will prevent the kind of… Read more »
Jasmine & Julie, while you might not hate men, the outcomes of feminist-backed legislation, MSM stereotypes and the not infrequent treatment men receive at the hands of your feminist sistren makes yours a position of diminished impact. It goes back to the question asked in the MRM – does it matter if not all women are like that, if enough women ARE like that then that is the norm. Men’s issues are marginalised, women try to tell men how to be good men and then feminists wonder at the antipathy they experience. The primary reason the MRM should not ally… Read more »
Thank you for this, Julie! I don’t at all think that you would be considered a traitor, because it has been my experience that these are exactly the goals of feminism – not to be divisive but to listen and to work together. Sometimes I get frustrated when engaging with anti-feminists or MRAs because I spend so much time trying to explain my ideology and how I don’t hate men, how my goal isn’t female supremacy, how I truly want equality that the actual issues get lost in the fray. People often ask me why, with the negative connotations associated… Read more »