Joanna Schroeder advocates both individual responsibility and an understanding of the realities of the society we live in.
Winter in West Michigan can be dreadful. Snow falls almost continuously due to “Lake Effect”, and as you can imagine, it’s really flippin’ cold. It was one of those days: grey, bitter cold, and dumping snow. My father and I were driving on a rural road. A rusty pickup truck squealed to the side of the road in front of us, and out jumped a young woman holding a baby in a snowsuit. There were no houses in sight and a storm was coming in. The pickup squealed off, its tires spinning and spitting snow into the air in front of us.
My father and I looked at each other. I was about fourteen. He turned to me and said, “We’re going to ask that lady if she needs a ride (there were no cell phones at this time, of course), but I want you to ask her so she’s not scared.” I understood.
We pulled up, I asked her, and she replied, “Aww no, honey, thanks. He’ll be back.” She smiled at me, but her face was puffy and streaked with tears. We drove away, but we looped back around to be sure she was fine, and of course she was climbing back into that truck just a few minutes later. My father pulled the car over after the truck was gone and explained to me why he had me ask the lady if she wanted help. He said he would’ve offered help regardless, but she’d be more likely to take it from a man with a female in the car. He also said that I shouldn’t get in a car with a man I didn’t know. I already knew that, of course.
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Last week, after holiday shopping on the crazy-busy Third Street Promenade in Santa Monica, I went for lunch alone at Tender Greens. This restaurant is set up cafeteria-style, where the majority of the seating is at a bunch of long tables. While in line, a nice guy said something to me like, “Isn’t this restaurant cool?” and we chatted a bit about how awesome it is that restaurants focusing on local goods are sprouting up.
I took my tray and sat down, and after he paid, he sat down by me at one of these long tables. Not directly across, but diagonal. We ate quietly for a bit, but eventually got into a really interesting conversation about the music his record label makes and how he chooses to run his label in a socially-responsible manner. I talked to him about the GMP and solicited him to submit an article about an album that a tough-guy singer is about to release that focuses around the pain of having been bullied when he was younger. We shared emails on our phones and were off on our separate ways.
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So why did I tell you these two relatively uneventful stories? Because I’m trying to pull together both sides of this debate about the Presumption of Male Guilt (a special section of GMP I recently co-led), and say that Hugo Schwyzer is right… and so is Lisa Hickey.
In a recent Twitter debate between a bunch of people, including Tom Matlack, Hugo Schwyzer, and two well-respected feminists, Jennifer Pozner and Amanda Marcotte, Hugo asked Tom “your daughter has a choice: she can accept a ride from a strange woman or strange man. Do you care? What advice do you give?” to which Tom replied, “I would not tell her to base it on gender. Don’t get in cars with strangers period…” I think this is foolish, stubborn advice based in a theoretical argument rather than reality. There are times in which we need help, we all need help, and though Lisa is so right when she says, “The best way to overcome fear is to gain competence” in her piece, When Women Fear Men, that is not always an option.
I flashed back to what my father taught me both with his words and his actions that day on the side of that country road in a snow storm. Sometimes we have to ask for help, Tom, and sometimes there are only strangers around. There may be a violent-looking woman and a very kind-looking man to choose from, and in that case your daughter should defy gender stereotypes. She should follow her instincts. But in general, your daughter should play the numbers and know that if she is going to be raped or murdered, it is most likely going to be by a man and make a choice based upon that.
My father, without naming it, understood that in Rape Culture, he was presumed guilty despite being completely well-intended. He was willing to shoulder that burden and wasn’t angry about not being innately trusted.
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I think what is misunderstood about Hugo’s message in In Rape Culture, All Men Are Guilty Until Proven Innocent, is that in recognizing the reality of a world in which women are (in general) physically weaker and the police and courts systems are (in general) dominated by men, you do not have to feel guilty. You do not need to feel bad about yourself because of what other men have done. There is a difference between Feminists trying to make you feel bad about being a man (which is dead wrong) and us asking you to recognize the way most women feel, and asking you to respect that.
Hugo, it seems to me, is calling men forth to demand more from one another. Sure, you shouldn’t have to do this, but this is the way society changes. As a feminist, I ask women to stop doing the things that damage society and ourselves. Yes, we are complicit too. It isn’t about self-hate, it’s about taking responsibility. The woman in that pickup was probably in an abusive relationship (whether it was him abusing her, or them abusing one another) and she needed to take responsibility for being there and needed to change her life, especially for her baby. That’s her job. Resources are available, and it’s our job, as a society, to offer those resources. We all have responsibility here, and feeling guilty (on a micro level) is merely going to cripple our ability to make change (on a macro level).
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To Lisa’s point, in her rebuttal Rapists, I have Known, “Presuming guilt in males is not good for males and it is not good for females”, being suspicious of men does harm all of us in a day-to-day way. When I was in line at Tender Greens, I could’ve assumed this guy, Jacob, was a perv or a creep or only out to sleep with me. But on a micro level, on a personal level, I had a strong feeling he wasn’t. I trust my feelings. Even if he had a sliver of intention to hook up with me, all I had to do was say “no” (I’m married). We were in a restaurant in a bustling city and I am an intelligent and resourceful woman.
I assumed the best about Jacob, and I was rewarded by meeting a nice person who regarded me as a human being and a professional. Maybe someday he’ll become a contributor to The Good Men Project and he will show us yet another way in which men are good. Am I defying what Hugo says about Rape Culture in doing what Lisa says we should do (not pre-judge men, become competent myself)? Am I denying Rape Culture by trusting a man, any man? No, Rape Culture is real and Good Men are real.
I don’t intend to speak for this relative stranger, Jacob, in saying that he took responsibility for Rape Culture in his short interaction with me last week. But in my mind, he did. He spoke to me as an equal, he did not step into my personal space, he did not mention anything about my physical appearance, he didn’t touch me or follow me, or ask for my number (I volunteered my email after talking about contributing to GMP someday). I don’t think he treated me like I was a man—I think he treated me like I am a human. And, if I may speak for women for just a moment, that is what we want.
I think this is something most of you guys do every day. As Hugo maintains, “Good guys hold themselves and other men accountable, in public and in private.” Good guys act how Jacob acted, and they hold other men accountable to act the same. Those simple behaviors are the start of a revolution.
About Joanna Schroeder
Thank you Joanna.
It unrealistic to set a standard for an entire group, fulled with people who’s life you know nothing about.
That goes for woman and men.
It’s unreasonable to tell someone to be accountable for someone else, let alone a total stranger.
You can have your opinion about the way a man lives his life, but unless he wants to change and is seeking your help it’s all for nothing.
Joanna a very well articulated piece. I don’t necessarily agree with everything here but I feel like I learned something by reading this and understand your POV better. I honestly wouldn’t want my daughter to get in a car with a stranger. And yet I am sure there are times when she needs help and she would need to make a judgement. Should she more scared of a black man than a white one? Based on numbers I suppose she probably should be, but I’m enough of an idealist to not want to act on that because I actually think she could tell more by looking at what kind of individual she was dealing with than the gender or skin color of the stranger, just like Jacob did with you–as stranger but a nice one, despite being a man. That doesn’t discount in any way what you express in terms of what it is like to be a women in a world where rape etc does happen too often. I do think the language around male guilt has gotten screwed up and perhaps we are all agreeing but just not finding the right way to talk about it. Hopefully this piece helps clarify some of that, as was my attempt in mine.
See my piece below, Tom. I think one way we deal with the fear of “not knowing who the monster is” is by creating categories for trust. We do this with race, gender, class etc. We manage the anxiety of not being able to see into another’s intentions by lumping groups of people together.
“A white lady in a suit will be safer than that hispanic lady with no shoes.”
A black lady with kids will be safer than a white man traveling alone.”
How do we know that? We don’t. That white lady in a suit might be responsible for some horrible corporate oil spill that killed the gulf. That hispanic lady might help you and treat you to a home cooked meal. We have NO idea.
We hedge our bets and we do it awkwardly. We claim stats and numbers to justify our choices.
We also filter our own experiences and create nano second judgements based on unconscious things.
What if you had an amazingly kind piano teacher that looks like the man at the gas station. What if you also see an Asian older woman who reminds you of something in your past that was not so pleasant. Do you know you are filtering those thoughts? You don’t know which person is the kind/safe one.
(in statistical likelihood they both probably are the kind/safe one).
Gift of Fear was a great book that broke down a lot of the micro-second information that people manage all the time. There could be, and should be a Gift of Trust book too maybe.
I see, in all of these discussions, so much anxiety that I wonder if it isn’t coming up, burbling to the surface from a deeper well. I’m not sure what that is, but I do know it feels really painful to watch, it must be painful to experience (as the arguments attest), and I’m not sure how to make things better.
I do appreciate this article Joanna. Thanks.
Hey Joanna,
Thanks for such a thought-provoking piece. In both of the stories you tell, I can imagine myself in just those situations you describe.
I want to start by answering this — which to me connects the stories and issues you choose to tell here:
“your daughter has a choice: she can accept a ride from a strange woman or strange man. Do you care? What advice do you give?”
My advice to my kids starts with the bigger areas of 1) always be aware of your surroundings 2) know the escape routes 3) don’t panic 4) Think twice before getting into any situation you can’t get out of.
And – I am with Tom – I would say “don’t get into cars with strangers, period.” I honestly can’t see the benefit to giving my children guidance that they should be more fearful of men than of women. They seem to be able to pick that up just fine without me.
I really would rather teach my kids skills for self-competence. Often it’s more about thinking through to the future – get a good job so you can buy a car that doesn’t break down. Keep it maintained. Make sure your phone battery is fully charged – especially on long road trips. Always tell someone where you’re going. Don’t drink, or be super responsible when you do – drinking impairs your judgment, you might be drunk AND stranded somewhere without a ride. In other words — *Create a life for yourself where you probably won’t have to worry about getting in cars with strangers.*
I just have a really hard time with “make sure you have enough gas, don’t forget to charge your phone, and oh, be careful not to get raped.” I know no one overtly says those things, but it seems to me that’s the intention.
I am honestly trying to understand the benefits to teaching my children to be more cautious around men rather than teaching them a whole host of other things they might learn to survive and thrive.
But here’s the other piece of this that’s interesting to me Joanna. What you do with SheSaidHeSaid – your column on sex and relationships – THAT does it for me. That talks about – well, sex and relationships. So it talks about all of the ways to navigate through the complexities, gives a view of sex through both sides of the male and female experience, and lets people know that it is important and good to talk about the difficult issues.
And what that brings up is that really – when teaching – be as specific as possible. Not just what to be afraid of, but what to do in a whole variety of situations you might find yourself in. That’s what is so powerful about shared storytelling.
This long comment – sorry, it should have been a post! — does not negate the joy I got from reading your stories, thinking them through, and forming conclusions in my mind about what is the appropriate way to respond.
Lisa, I agree with you almost completely about specifics and being prepared. I don’t know what it’s like to have a daughter, I really don’t, but the way my fathers raised me (father and stepfather) was to be exactly as you teach your children to be. Prepared, confident, competent, and they both actually taught me to be ferocious. Maybe a little too much (someday I’ll tell the story of how I ended up with a restraining order against a paparazzo).
Of course I tell my kids not to get into cars with anyone, ever, aside from the three people who pick them up from school. I prepare them for danger, we even practice stranger danger just as we practice what to do when we encounter rattlesnakes or coyotes (hello, Southern California). But I’ll be honest: I tell my kids that if they ever cannot find me or someone they know, they are to find a mama with kids and ask her for help. I know that can be seen as sexist, but I’m purely playing odds here. I tell them the second safest person is a daddy with kids.
Izz got lost at the zoo once and ran through the crowd until he found a family (mom, dad, kids, grandparents) and showed them where I’d written my phone number on his arm. I was on his tail, I could see him twenty feet ahead of me in the crowd, so I saw the whole thing while running to try to catch him. Perhaps I should’ve said “family with kids” but I guess he knew what I meant. I don’t regret this choice in language, but as my kids become teens I like the idea of what you’re saying: Gas, credit card, charged cell phone, warm jacket, AAA card.
And I’m dealing with boys here, so it’ll all be different for me, but I like what you’re saying, I really do.
Ferocious, that’s great! i’d take that as a compliment any day!
I do have a son, and I do remember that same panic when losing him at an aquarium one day. Argh!
But I do think I’ll have the conversation with my son (age 24) — and give him the two examples (your father and meeting a stranger in a public place) and seeing what he says he’d do. It will also be interesting to see if he even gets the term “rape culture” — and whether his friends have ever once joked about rape or implied that it was in any way shape or form close to OK. If previous discussions are any indication, he’d be disgusted with the idea. So again — to me — the solution wouldn’t so much rest on trying to get normal “good” guys to step up and hold others accountable — because, from the people I’ve talked to it’s just outside their realm of of experience. But I think addressing the underlying causes — previous abuse, alcohol and drug abuse, mental disorders, social isolation — might be a better path to stoping rapists from raping.
Theres a real problem with that: It sends a message that fathers are less trustworthy than mothers. This is prefectly justifiable if only men abduct children, or married men with children were likely abductors, but neither statement is true.
I won’t tell you how to raise your kids, and I don’t have any of my own (yet). But if and when I do I’ll tell them to keep away from strange adults and to look for uniforms if they get lost (police, security, nurses etc.) followed by families.
Purely anecdotal – my husband and I don’t tell them about uniforms (aside from firefighters) because my husband had a dear female friend when he was young who left his house in a very safe neighborhood to walk home. She was raped and murdered by a security guard whose uniform looked almost exactly like a police officer (including gun).
The screening that security guards go through is almost nothing, and their training is also almost nothing. A mother or father with kids, to us, is a much safer bet.
As I said, I’d be willing to accept that “a family with kids” is probably a better choice. That’s what he chose anyway.
Good god how awful! I thought of security guards on the basis that they’re usually in charge of the PA, plus thats where I’d bring a lost kid if I came across one, or look for one if my kid were missing (god forbid). Maybe I’ll think twice about that.
If you have boys then I’ll ask you to read the CDC stats showing they’re highly at risk of sexual abuse, even by females (very high risk of rape even if you count forced to penetrate as rape). Their risk of physical abuse is also very high, depending on stats you read up to equal levels of domestic abuse, psychological abuse by partners is also a 50:50 split. Then we come to risk of violence in society as a whole, and according to the W.H.O males suffer from violence about 2.2-2.5x more overall.
But who is safe with our kids? Mothers are the highest rate of child abuse, fathers highest rate of sexual abuse (though mothers making up to 20% according to some stats), there are stats to make every human, afraid of every other human. We can realize that men might be more likely to harm them but we can also realize that most males aren’t harmful, most males will protect that kid from abuse if they can and have the strength apparently to back it up. But alas we judge the many by the few, a we fear men because of a “hyper-fear of men culture”. We’ve grown up hearing the stats, listening to parents justify their prejudice of men because of those stats yet we’re at the point where men are so scared to be around kids that they won’t go and check on them if there is trouble. So who are your boys safer with? From what I remember of stats females were more likely to murder the children, and females more likely to kill boys at that so are they really safer being with a woman vs a man?
There was a case in the UK I believe of a young girl who went walkabout at daycare, a man saw her but feared what people would do but then she ends up falling into water and drowning I believe and he was unable to help at that point. I realize parents are very afraid for their children but seriously, this society hurts the majority of men because of the minority and we’re facing a generation of kids who will grow up being petrified of men, losing out on normal human interactions, lack male role models in schools because of the fear of abuse. As Peter says, it sends a message that fathers are less trustworthy and when people who advocate against sexism have so much prejudice for men where they are educating their kids to goto WOMEN with kids instead of Any parent….Seriously? Why should men care about sexism against women if they’re so willing to use it and justify it with stats based on the few?
What many fail to understand is that a culture of fear can cause very real harm, muslims after 911 are a prime example. There are cases of innocents being targetted for vigilant justice because the previous tennant is on the sex offender registry and they didn’t update it. We have fathers who get dirty looks FOR DOING THEIR JOB AS FATHER and spending time with them at parks. But no, we can’t trust the men even though history is full of men who sacrifice their lives protecting everyone else. Military, police, fire services, are primarily full of men but no, men are less trustworthy.
If the majority of men committed abuse, and the majority of women DIDN’T commit abuse then you might have a cause for concern, but we have stats of abuse from both genders that are at parity for some forms of abuse and even show females more likely to abuse in some cases yet still they are granted automatic trust.
And parents, ask your daughters about if they joke about rape or even realize men can be raped, the new cdc stats are shocking in how much rape women are doing now and it isn’t as high as the male abusers but it’s still a very huge concern when equal levels of men and women (1.1% or 1.2million Americans for each gender) in the last 12 months were raped pretty much, and the males report 79.2% of their attackers were FEMALE. And of course educate the male children on abuse, educate everyone on abuse and don’t do the typical male attacker female victim scenario only, do ALL of the scenarios.
It saddens me that I even have to reply to this on a site that has so many fights over sexism and equality, with people who fight for equality and ending sexism. Is it only equality in a pick and choose fashion? Is it only sexism against females that matters? This double standard is what annoys people and quite frankly it seems to be a common theme in feminism, which doesn’t surprise me of why people are hostile towards it. An acceptable prejudice can exist as long as men are the victims it seems, question is WHY? ALL it’s doing is continuing the gender war that funnily enough was a topic a few weeks back, so why is it so important to paint men as less trustworthy as women? It contradicts the desires to get men to drop gender roles if they aren’t allowed the freedom and trust in being a full carer of children without suspicion!
Jonna – You said:
“But I’ll be honest: I tell my kids that if they ever cannot find me or someone they know, they are to find a mama with kids and ask her for help. I know that can be seen as sexist, but I’m purely playing odds here. I tell them the second safest person is a daddy with kids.”
They are your kids and as a parent you are responsible for teaching them. I do have a concern though, which may not be valid as I don’t know the ages of your children, but it’s that “Told” which is the concern.
As a child I was told – result = sexual abuse. I have dealt with many people who have had to deal with so many situations and I am always wary of that word Told. It can get in the way at critical moments. It’s a very rigid word that can trap people when they need to react to fluid situations.
I have seen it used very effectively and It has saved lives. I think of Rick Rescorla who worked at the world trade center as security manager. He told people if they did not feel safe then they were to act. They would not be punished for being wrong. He did not tell people to have limited views, but to have wide views and trust their own instincts. His Told gave people fluidity.
I also remember a self defense seminar I took some 30 years ago. There was a very interesting point raised. If you are in need of help you never ask a person who can help “Can I Trust You?”. If they have, for want of a better term, evil intent they can breeze over the question very easily. Their intent overrides normal human reaction to the question. They react in the same way that a none dangerous person would. But if you ask them “Are you going to harm me – attack me – abuse me” the none dangerous person will react with shock and even confusion. It also places the relationship on a different power balance. It also allows things such as body language to be reacted to. You use the fluidity of the interpersonal dynamic to see if someone had a rigid intent.
As I said – I’m not telling you how to raise your kids – but there is a difference between being told and being empowered. P^)
Joanna,
Thanks for this article. I have been reading all the GMP posts on the discussion of Presumption of Male Guilt. And I have tried to comment more than once. But I found myself unable to articulate the many thoughts occurring to me all at once. Your article though seems to capture closest to where my opinion lies: somewhere in the middle. You are so right when you so that rape culture is real and so are good men. I read the articles by Lisa, Hugo, Tom, etc. and agreed a lot and disagreed a little with all of them. Thats why I had such a hard time deciding how to comment!
I agree with you that it is the responsibility of an entire society (men and women) to fight rape culture. I hope that will be one of the things most people take form this conversion.
But wherever we land with this discussion, im glad we are having it. Things start to change on the macro level because we discuss things like this together and contemplate our actions and feelings of the day to day.
It made me a little sad to see that people became so aggressive or angry or accusatory on twitter (people on both sides of the debate) ,especially because as its already been pointed out, the individuals getting aggravated with each other really seemed to agree on most points. But, I can understand it. When you talk about the hard to talk about, it is bound to be personal and people will be passionate and that will manifest in many different ways.
Still, just thought Id comment on your article because I think this is a great example of how this discussion can be had
Thank you so much Jasmin.
The hard thing about the internet is that we are so detached from one another. When I was reading the Twitter feed, I was reminded of what I know about Tom – which isn’t a whole ton. But one thing I know is that he is the best friend of two men that I know and respect very, very much. I also know that he started this project, the book and the site, and that his heart is very, very good.
Even when things he said made me wince, I went back to what I know to be true about him. It made me want to sit across from him and buy him a coffee and just take a break, take a breath, and find our common ground and then take small, slow steps from there.
On the Internet we can’t do that, and we lose sight of one another’s hearts. Mostly because we don’t know the others’ hearts. But that deep breath, that step away from the screen, that moment to collect thoughts — they can still be utilized and can help us say something more effective than our anger leads us to.
According to lots of ‘studies’ and ‘research’ people who pirate music also BUY more music.
(whether it was him abusing her, or them abusing one another)
Yet why is the presumption that in all cases the guy has to be guilty? Why couldn’t it be she’s the lone abuser in group? That old saw” If she hit him what did he do to deserve it ”
Almost any guy that’s ever dated / loved a Bi-polar woman has had to learn that.
In that particular case, I would imagine it was because she was the one running away (assuming I read it right). If she were the sole abuser it doesn’t seem likely that she’d be trying to get out.
I agree that the dynamic you’re speaking about (female on male abuse being ignored and covered up) is real and troublesome, but I don’t think this is an instance of it.
Ever dated a Bi-polar person? The I hate you I’m getting out / leaving right now……followed by ….Why didn’t you come back / stay drama. In cases like this there is a natural assumption, that doesn’t mean it’s right.
Fair point, I take it back, and no I haven’t.
I think that this was probably a mutually abusive situation. I’ve seen a lot of abusive relationships and am pretty good at assessing what’s happening pretty early on. I think a lot more relationships are mutually abusive than we know.
I feel VERY strongly on the issue of men being abused by women and I know for a fact how often this happens. I mean, I know to the degree that one can know, due to underreporting and lack of research.
In this case, I feel pretty confident, even in retrospect. Just the body language of terror as opposed to indignation or drama.
” I think this is foolish, stubborn advice based in a theoretical argument rather than reality”
Based on what, your bigotry lack of understanding of what the stats. say?
Women are more likely it abuse children – physically. emotionally and psychologically.
And professionals on female sexual abuse consider what we know about it to be the tip of the iceberg and believe that most of it remains hidden because of residual religious and patriarchal beliefs about women, and the sort of myths about abuse that feminists preach to society.
“she can accept a ride from a strange woman or strange man. Do you care? What advice do you give?”
My advice is to accept a ride from neither. Call your mom, me, your grandfather, grandmother, uncles, aunts, cousins, any one of our hundreds of friends who know and love you. In most cases, strangers will help not harm but why place your hope in a stranger when you have far better options. My job as a parent is to ensure my girls have better, safer options than relying on the kindness of strangers should they get into some type of trouble.
This kind of thing is a life lesson. My girls have seen, and we try to teach them that solving problems is not just a point in time exercise. Having a good relationship with family and creating a large tight circle of friends helps one along when problems arise. As an example, a young lady friend of ours recently had her car break down twice. Within minutes she had several friends there to help her. Because of the way she lives her life, she did not need to depend on the kindness of strangers, as well intended as they might be.
But what if she were in a situation where she couldn’t call?
Personally if she were in a situation where it was impossible or dangerous to walk out I’d tell her to take the first ride out of there she can. If theres no gardai, take a taxi and I’ll pay for it when she gets home (this is what my parents always told me to do, they’d go crazy if I took the hour long walk home from the bus), if theres no taxis then its a matter hitching a ride. If shes in that situation I wouldn’t want her to pass up a ride from a safe looking stranger just because they were a man or black, only to find no further offers or to get a ride with a white woman who turns out to be drunk at the wheel.
Keeping kids safe isn’t as simple as trust women, be careful of men. Theres multiple factors involved.
Joanna, while I liked all of the other articles on this topic, this is the one that most spoke to me and my own experiences and ways of being in the world.Fantastic! I really can’t thank you enough.
I have a daughter too, and for me, I’d rather advise her in the way my gut tells me will increase her odds on safety than in a way that is more “socially appropriate,”or whatever, because I have raised her well to be an open-minded, non-bigoted person, and she totally is–she is AMAZING in this way. She well understands that all men are not rapists or dangerous to her. She also understands crime statistics.
I have always advised her that if she were lost or in a situation where she needed help, and she had a choice between apparently kind looking people, she should just play it safer (safe-ER) and go to the woman. I simply do not agree that there is anything wrong with this.
In the past few days, I have asked my husband, my father, my two brothers, and my male next door neighbor what they thought about this debate, and they all agreed 100% with me and Joanna and said this is how they all advise their own daughters. They do not feel persecuted by women or that women believe they are rapists. They understand why women might have fear, and do not think it is too much to ask of them to understand and respect that and not challenge it. They don’t take it personally, and some of them laughed at the idea of doing so. They absolutely did not feel it was bigoted. I had LOTS of great conversations with men I love and trust.
Now, on a philosophical level, I agree with Lisa and Tom. It is worth working towards having a better world where this would not even be an issue. And teaching girls competence is important. But it feels like a deflection of Joanna’s question to say, “I would just say not to get in ANY strange car” or “I would teacher my daughter to fix her car.” Both of those are great pieces of advice. BUT…if my daughter ever CAN’T fix her car and DOES have to get help and make a choice, I want her to play the odds. Why? Because her literal life is more important to me than teaching her a lesson in gender-neutrality AT THAT MOMENT.
There are millions of other moments for those positive messages, and she gets them, and they outweigh any minor “damage” done to her view of men by my and my husband’s advice. But, she is our CHILD. I know she is statistically more likely to suffer violent crime from a man than a woman, and my job as her mother is to protect her as best I can. So I give her the advice that increases her odds (and there are no guarantees because a woman can hurt her too, but this is about ODDS) and THEN ALSO I teach her in many ways, at many times respect for both genders,and all races, and all that other good stuff.
All of the men in my life that I love and respect (and have checked in with) have the same view. This is not only a “feminist” view nor a uniquely female distorted view of some type, MANY men hold the same view.
Joanna, thanks for articulating what I wish I could have. You totally nailed it–for me. And if this is about INDIVIDUALS and their stories, and individual human beings and their rights to be good humans as they see fit, without being gender-policed by one group or another, then I feel that I (and all those male relatives and friends) can advise the girls and women in our lives as we see fit out of out love and responsibility towards them.
“I think this is something most of you guys do every day. As Hugo maintains, “Good guys hold themselves and other men accountable, in public and in private.” Good guys act how Jacob acted, and they hold other men accountable to act the same. Those simple behaviors are the start of a revolution.”
This bit bothers me. I know it isn’t what you took from it, but that article really does read like men are responsible for women’s safety and other men’s actions. As a concept it belongs in the 1800s when women were viewed as the weaker sex and men were all expected to be the manly virile champions of society. Assuming men to be guilty until proven innocent covers up female complicity and male goodness.
As for the practical issue of keeping kids safe, I’ve no problem with offering practical advice, but I don’t agree that telling kids to trust strange women over strange men makes them safer. I can think of several instances where it might endanger them or encourage them to act against their best instincts. Stranger danger is genderblind.
Damn, sorry, that was meant to be a general response to the artical, not that post.
*Ick, *article
must be having a bad day.
I really hope you are all for gender roles to remain in society then and women to be seen as the primary child carer. What you advocate, is that males are less trustworthy around children. You teach your children this, other parents teach their children this and it becomes a society-wide belief. It DIRECTLY helps to stop men from being child-carers, causes suspicion of male daycare employee’s for example, makes men themselves afraid to open up to their own children. We have men so afraid they stop hugging their teenage daughters because others might think they’re doing something wrong, people who ask for male preschool teachers to be fired, and yet people still complain that men aren’t doing enough of the child-caring and spending enough time with the kids?
I really do not know why we even bother talking about gender roles, no one wants to drop them. Instead of believing it’s a woman’s only job, we just change it to women are safer with kids and nooo we can’t trust men, if you have boys I wonder how they will feel growing up being afraid to interact with children? You either drop the anti-male prejudice, or you accept that women are always going to be considered the primary childcarer, you can’t have both. It’s a constant pressure on men to avoid any job or role with children, because of one of the last remaining acceptable prejudices. Why bother trusting your husband with your kids? Stats show either you, or him, are most likely to abuse and hurt your child? Do you raise them to be afraid of yourself? This is the part that many people fail on, they will gladly demonize STRANGE men who are statistically less likely to harm their kids whilst blindly trusting their friends, family.
Go on, tell your husband, father, brother, neighbour that they’re the most likely person to sexually abuse your daughter for instance, see how they respond. Do you trust them 100%? Because that trust you have for them is exactly how abuse can happen without response. See what fear could do? See how stats can be used in very harmful ways? I’ll be surprised if this post is let through but hopefully someone reads it, I really want to know what they think on playing the odd’s because to me it sounds like a total lie if you ever read stats on abuse. The odds point out clearly that the people around them the most, are the most likely ones to abuse them and usually it’s parents yet parents will gladly talk about how they don’t trust strangers, especially the boogieman male stranger in the trenchcoat.
I’m a moderator. I don’t delete comments because they disagree with my views.
I do not blindly trust family and friends because you are right that they are more likely to abuse a child than strangers. I’m talking about the circumstance of being alone by a broken down car and having a choice, which often is not even present. But if it is, I do believe that among strangers, a male is more likely to violently harm my child than a female. More men commit murder, robbery, and other violent crimes than women.
You are free to disagree with my view, but it comes out of love and protectiveness for my child, and parents are like that, which is good.
I was careful in my post not to generalize that you can’t trust men. I have also written extensively on the insidious and damaging effects on male teachers and child care givers. I’m am publicly on record as being against this stigma being put on men. I spent many years as a school administrator actively seeking men to hire. Your assumption about me advocating that men are not trustworthy to care for children is 100% the opposite of my view. You know what they say about people who assume.
I feel you have taken one small slice of my parenting and generalized it to some all-encompassing negative view of men. The body of my work–my writing, my commenting, the way I live my life–does not support your assumptions.
But please understand–I am entitled to my view, as you are entitled to yours. I do not know you. I would not make sweeping generalizations about you based on an internet comment. Thank you for weighing in. I accept your view. It is one possible view among many, as is mine. I love men. I devoted seven years of my life to working almost exclusively with men and boys in an educational setting where I was in an extreme minority and was passionate about improving the educational and life outcomes for boys.
I wish more people withheld judgment and did not jump to conclusions, but I’m used to it. All I can do is try not to do that myself.
But that’s the thing, those small slipups in not teaching gender neutrality are what help to keep the gender roles going. By playing the odds, you’ve implied there is less safety with men. Odds are a man will be more likely to be violent but so are black people it seems. Would you also advocate they avoid them and go for the white person? I’m sure you can understand what I mean when I say those small slipups keep gender roles going, because teaching people that in any case it’s safer to be with women because of odds directly harms the ability to trust men whether it’s true or not.
I have no problems with people trying to educate against abuse and stop it (although all versions must be taken into account), but when I as a male am trusted less with a child and thought to be under suspicion because of my gender and because a minority of men did horrible things it’s quite offensive. Playing the odds gives reason to take kids away from parents, but good luck at that ever happening. You’re entitled to your opinion of course but I am glad that you do try to think about the consequences and see the effects on men in childcare roles but do you also see how our culture portrays men as LESS trustworthy? Believe me, men do feel this, and it’s the good men who get annoyed because it goes against quite a bit of equalism teaching we’ve heard on prejudice and profiling.
I recall reading or seeing a show (I think it was a tv show) on a woman who had been abducted after hitchhiking. She’d gotten into a car with a man and a woman because she thought it would be safer. It was an outlier kind of story. She wound up being with this couple in a most distressing circumstance for several years apparently.
The thing is about monsters is you ca actually see that they are monsters right? Huge ugly things. Wings, warts, claws. We created fairy tales about them to keep kids safe, yes? Trolls under bridges. Witches with candy houses. Snow Queens imprisoning children. Dragons.
But anyone sociopathic enough to abuse a child or rape a person or kill someone or traffic humans or grift or run a mob or whathaveyounomatterthegenderetc. Well, they look like people. They don’t have wings or claws or breathe fire. They are gay, straight, white, black, hispanic, old, young, male, female, and they all are in human bodies.
We don’t want to believe that the person we are with is evil. In fact, even when confronted with evidence that a person is probably acting oddly to you (like in a work place and someone is selling you out or bullying you) most of us (in my experience) do this thing were we figure its our fault.
So what do we do? If you can’t see who the monsters are you have two choices.
Trust no one.
Trust everyone.
Both choices have problems. This is the nugget of the whole schrodinger’s rapist thing. It could well be schroedinger’s murderer, or schroedinger’s liar or anything. One doesn’t know. One cannot tell just by looking at someone if they are a good person or not. One has to make a best guess, be prepared for a wide variety of outcomes, and try to trust.
We need to reward people for trusting (while being prepared) and not blame them if they get caught by a monster. We need to blame the monsters.
Good men and good women can do this, I feel certain of it. Most of us do this all the time. We trust as best we can and try to take care of each other when bad things happen.
I don’t know what other choice there can be if we want to live in the group structures we live in.
Well said.
On the point of wanting to trust the people we know, that woman (if we’re thinking of the same one) continued to live with her abductor for years after she was freed.
Theres other examples of child abductors using other children at bait. That said, looking for families is probably good advice in general, even if I disagree that women are necessarily safer than men.
Joanna–I’m so glad you posted this. I’ve been thinking of responding to some of the recent articles, but just couldn’t get my thoughts together in one place! Here is the crux (for me): “There is a difference between Feminists trying to make you feel bad about being a man (which is dead wrong) and us asking you to recognize the way most women feel, and asking you to respect that.”
I, in no way, look at all men as being dangerous–that would be plain self-destructive, wouldn’t it? And I have actually taken rides from both men and women. Here are two examples: When I was a little girl, about six, I left my elementary school to walk home. There was a torrential downpour happening and I had only my raincoat and my little umbrella which was no use in the strong wind. I had quite a walk (don’t ask me where my mother was or why she didn’t come to get me) ahead of me. A woman, who I knew worked at my school (but I had not ever spoken or met), pulled up next to me and asked if I wanted a ride home. I said yes. I proceeded to direct her to my house where she dropped me off minutes later. My mother, needless to say, was furious with me–I had gotten in the car with a “stranger.”
There was another time, in my early thirties, when I had been roller-blading and got very sick and nauseous. I literally could not stand up without getting dizzy. I was close to a small boat club and went in. A man there offered to give me a ride home–I said yes. I trusted my gut which told me he was a good guy. He dropped me off at my apartment and that was that. In both cases, my instinct told me that I had nothing to fear. Of course, there have been countless times that I have assessed a particular male who I’ve noticed either following me, or one who gave me that eerie feeling, and walked the other way. I believe that it is called “fight or flight,” and is a defense mechanism we all possess. Without it, we wouldn’t even know when to cross the street.
I have been hyper-aware of the dangerous world we live in since I was a child (including the fear of being raped)–and I believe that awareness has served me well. The bottom line is that we must trust our feelings. I did appreciate Lisa’s piece–but I have to say, I don’t know any women who are afraid of ALL men. I plan on teaching my daughter to trust her instinct–not to be fearful of men in general, but to know when something doesn’t feel right, that feeling is right. I don’t want her to think she might be offending someone in the process. At that point–she needs to trust her instincts.
Thanks again for your post.
Thanks, Michele, for your support!
Re: getting into cars with strange men
I recently did this. At 3 o’clock in the morning. In the middle of rural nowhere. Without any other person present.
No matter how well you take care of your car- believe me, my 378,000+ mile Honda Element is treated quite lovingly -at some point many of us are going to need help. For me, it was when my alternator died on I-90 in Montana about 15 miles from the nearest town and about 50 miles from home in the middle of the freaking night. I called a tow truck.
You want to talk about playing the odds? Guess what happens in Montana if you call for a tow truck? Odds are good that a man will show up driving it. Odds are also overwhelmingly good that strange men you interact with will not harm you.
So it is not surprising that when the tow truck arrived, a man I didn’t know showed up, he drove me and my car home, and very predictably I came to absolutely no harm. I had gotten into his vehicle without so much as knowing his last name. Nobody would have missed me for at least a couple of days had something happened. Even by the odds-if we’re going by real information and not scare-mongering stereotypes-I was very safe through this whole encounter with a stranger.
Nonetheless, gender stereotypes are a crude tool to use, often misleading, and unnecessary when we have more information available to us. My advice for accepting help is this: don’t rely on primitive gender profiling by scary stereotype but on your own intentionally-developed powers of observation, your intuition, and so on. Judge individuals based on their own individual behaviors and your assessments thereof. And be prepared to get out of a situation you’ve gotten into-with a strange man or a strange woman-should your assessment have been in error.
Thank-you for not automatically assuming the male is more of a risk. It really makes me wonder why parents talk about the odds, and stranger danger when the stats clearly show it’s the parents who are most likely to abuse or close friends/relatives. Seems less about odds and more about desperate attempts to satisfy their fears, but it’s a pity because teaching the children that behaviour simply causes fear and usually it’s fear of men. We don’t focus enough on how many men and women are good, sacrifice themselves daily to protect others but instead we live in a climate of fear…Terrorists (omg it’s a muslim, run!), pedophiles (oh nooo a man! lookout!), use to be witches but hooray science, communists, rogue states with nukes!!!111, etc.
Nothing wrong with being cautious but those stereotypes aren’t helpful, they were used once to demonize black men and now it’s simply any man can be a rapist!, prejudice is alive n well and the stats are used to justify it.
Theres probably a difference between being wary of strangers who just happen along and strangers that have a reason to be there (like mechanics), but good attitude!
Excerpt:
“He also said that I shouldn’t get in a car with a man I didn’t know. I already knew that, of course.”
It seems to me that feminists see rape everywhere. Feminists remind me of the kid in the 6th sense.
“I see rapists, they’re everywhere!”
It seems to me the VAST majority of women seem much less concerned about rape than do most feminists.
These women take almost NO precautions against getting raped. Millions of women nightly get into cars with men on first dates, or take them home (or go to the man’s home) on the first date.
The rampant hookup culture belies 1) the concept that all women (rather than just feminists) are concerned about rape and 2) that rapists are indeed everywhere.
The simple fact is that feminists use rape (whatever itls level of scarcity or abundance) as a club to beat men over the head and try to make them feel guilty about their gender or libido.
I’m not buying it.
Lucky for you, John D, you don’t have to buy it.
I’m not selling it.
I’m telling my experience and my opinions. Don’t want to buy it? Don’t. Doesn’t bother me one bit.
Let’s take a closer look at this notion of playing the odds. I’m posting references but not as hyperlinks so I don’t end up in moderation queue limbo.
Bureau of Justice Statistics evidence from 1993-2008 indicates that women are more likely to be victims of both fatal and non-fatal violence committed by non-strangers than by strangers.
Reference: bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/fvv.pdf
In other words, if we are truly playing the odds, we must recommend that women prefer help from strangers over non-strangers whenever that is an option. How many of you suggesting that women should “play the odds” and prefer strange women over strange men agree with this? You would recommend that your daughters, sisters, girlfriends and wives, and so on look for a strange man to get a ride from rather than accepting one from a male they know? If you don’t recommend this, then you really don’t believe in blindly playing the odds.
Kirsten
Using those stats is dishonest.
Everyone in this debate knows that NCVS is problematic, that one gender is far more likely to report a crime and that there are far more reliable types of surveys for getting actually rates of victimization.
Fine. Go ahead and post your data on stranger vs. non-stranger violence. Let’s look at that, too.
And, I just double-checked that report I cited. The fatal violence data does not come from NCVS. It is from the Uniform Crime Reporting Program which does not draw on the NCVS at all.
Crime reporting is not a survey. In addition the UCR has even more sexist definitions like saying men can’t be raped. The NISVS survey is the latest and greatest for accurately measuring this stuff. It is actually a good methodology and although it remains female biased it is much less so than others.
Okay, like I said, feel free to post your own data showing that non-strangers are less dangerous than strangers. I’m still waiting to see anyone show that we are advocating making these sorts of decisions based on any kind of actual data instead of collectivist assumptions.
She only mentioned women, so if it’s only women reporting the crime it’s still valid.
Theres a problem with that: the only way to avoid violence perpetrated by someone you know is not to know anyone, which isn’t how humans work.
Avoiding violence by someone you don’t know is easier, as Joanna paraphrased Lisa’s advice: Credit Card, Gas, AAA Card and Cell Phone. That and obvious things like avoiding bad areas and not getting hammered off your face in a bar and sleeping with strangers. Nothing can keep you completely safe, but those narrow the odds alot.
.
Would you move in with a man or a woman?
Who is more likely to file false accusations against you and clean out your house while you are trying to get out of jail?
While we’re looking at data and data sources, here’s a request for the “play the odds and avoid strange men” advocates: where are you getting your information on the alleged odds? What specific odds are you talking about and what is your source for that information? Are we really talking about playing the odds or merely about playing based on assumptions?
Speaking from experience, there really is not a difference. Anytime you hold individual men responsible for other men’s actions just because they are men, you are going to make men feel bad for being men. It does not matter how you try to soften the blow, feminists still blame all men for the actions of a few, and expect men to take responsibility for that.
I am responsible for a lot of things. I am responsible for my own actions. I am responsible for the things that directly result from my actions. Like feminists, I agree that I am solely responsible for and deserved the abuse I suffered as a child, although we disagree on the reason why. However, I am not responsible for anything that I did not cause or affect, nor am I responsible for things that occurred long before I was born or without my knowledge. I am certainly not responsible for the way some women choose to feel.
And the curious thing about this request is that it does not apply in the reverse. No feminist accepts responsibility for the violence or views of other feminists or women. It is strange for people to ask someone to do something they will not do themselves.
As for respecting what women feel, it is unfair to demand that men respect being thought of as inherently dangerous. People are entitled to feel whatever they want, but you cannot tell others that they have to agree with horrible views about them.
If your friend were making lewd jokes about a woman, giving commentary excusing rape, getting into the personal space of a female or making a female uncomfortable, would you say something to him? Would you say “this isn’t right”? Would you ask the woman who is made uncomfortable by a man if she needed any assistance? Would you report a crime against a woman, even if it were your friend or colleague or boss who committed it? Would you call for the removal of judges, police or other authorities who do not follow proper procedures in the cases of women?
These questions actually should be asked of ALL crime and inappropriate behavior. But in this case, I’m asking strictly about women.
That’s what I’m calling you to do. That’s it. Hold other men responsible to the same level you hold yourself. I do that with women, and I don’t feel guilty about what women do to men, children or other women. I simply expect them to do better when they’ve failed and call them out on bad behavior.
Joanne
I keep reading and finding these Polarities of men have to hold men accountable and women hold woman accountable.
I don’t think it’s your intent to create a divide, far from it, but the same thing keeps on happening and frankly is getting in the way.
I’m human first and male second. If I see action which needs to be taken for the welfare of another human I act. The gender focus seems to get in the way.
It even alienates groups who fit into the list of questions you have asked. Disabled, Elderly, Children, Race …. the list goes on and on.
You say “I do that with women, and I don’t feel guilty about what women do to men, children or other women. I simply expect them to do better when they’ve failed and call them out on bad behavior.”
Forgive me, but I keep getting confused by what appear to be mixed messages. Can you clarify, is your position, to paraphrase, that men should police men and women police women?
I’m not being cute or as someone has called me “Micro-Aggressive”, but I would like to get it clarified so that I understand your views and the points you make.
… and I actually feel resentment ( not aimed at you ) that I now feel obliged to start apologizing for asking questions or making points due to the levels of “Micro-Aggressive” behavior that so many round here do display and project onto others. P^/
Allow me to answer your questions with a question: why you assume that I and other men do not already do these things for everyone?
To ask me those questions implies that you are judging me not by my own actions, but by the what you assume all or most men do.
As for you not feeling guilty for other women’s actions, I suspect that is because no one blames women for other women’s behavior (or for their own behavior), particularly not feminists.
Feminism is not at all serious about ending violent and abusive behavior in adults.
If it was it would be drawing our attention to the fact that women commit most child abuse, and female perpetrated violence instead of always glossing over it.
The fun feminists are being used by the radical feminists, to spread their men are the only problem and rape culture hate propaganda.
“. There is a difference between Feminists trying to make you feel bad about being a man (which is dead wrong)”
There is a difference between some women trying to make you feel bad about being a man….
Suggested edit for accuracy and de-escalation….
Male feminists do it too, it is a bit of a running theme in feminism, if not a defining characteristic. I suspect that will change as male perspectives enter the gender debate more.
Male voices will not be allowed in.
Seriously: giving men a voice is entirely different from giving women a voice. Giving men a voice would be a radical action that would be of concern to the ruling class. Feminism never did anything that bothered the ruling class. Women are not prisoners. Women are not the homeless. Women are not veterans. Feminism was always a whiney wealthy white women’s movement. No threat whatsoever to the elites.
They looked like a threat for a few years because feminists (gender essentialists that they all are) claimed women were more moral than men and when they got the vote all sorts of radical stuff would happen. Starting with prohibition. So the elites blocked women’s vote for business reasons — they believed in the myth of angelic women too — really its only in the feminism movement that Victorian prejudice persists. Once prohibition passed anyway women’s vote followed. Then everyone figured out women just vote the exact same way as men and for ever after the elites were very happy having feminists to bash down men for them.
Because men form the underclass. And the last thing you want is to let the underclass think they have a voice.
Hey Liz,
I totally get what you’re saying here, and it would seem more accurate, but in fact I’m speaking of both male and female Feminists (specifically as this article references Hugo Schwyzer). What I probably should have said, if I was being ultra-careful was “some Feminists”…
However, what I am answering is the claim that “Feminism” and “Feminists” are trying to make men feel guilty. I am speaking for Feminism, but as it is such a broad umbrella, I hope that people are able to know that of course I do not speak for *all* Feminists in that. (of course you and I both know that most people who escalate commentary in this type of setting are not looking to be reasonable).
I’m not even looking to de-escalate. Honestly, as I said before (above) I’m not trying to sell anything so I don’t care if the MRAs or other people who don’t like my message don’t “buy” it. I’m speaking *my* truth, and when met with logical and respectful comments (Lisa, or you) I am 100% willing to concede my shortfalls (of which I have many).
These guys (gender neutral) neither bother me nor scare me. My truth is my truth.