Rising above your natural instincts is what needs to happen if you really want to have what you say you want.
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Let’s get one thing straight before I launch into this topic: I am no scientist. What I’m going to offer here is just plain-old common sense stuff.
Evolution is driven by what works, right?
So the things that stick around, and are behind a lot of our motivations in life, are driven by ancient instincts. Which are all about survival. The strongest made it, the weakest didn’t.
So imagine along with me here: for a gazillion years (see, I told you I wasn’t a scientist!) women had to have the strongest, tallest, fiercest, bravest and most capable protector and provider as their mate. In fact, my imagination says that there was probably “zero tolerance” for any signs of weakness…maybe even between the cavemen!
It was critical to the survival of our species. Thanks, cavepeople!
But now, we’re in the 21st century, and, even though we don’t need them any longer, those ancient instincts are still wreaking havoc in the way women and men are relating with each other.
These days, a majority of women are looking for a relationship with a man to be all about:
- Connection
- Intimacy
- Awesome communication
- Honesty
- Vulnerability
- Partnership
- Building a life of shared values and interests
AND – at the same time – men also have to be:
- Strong
- Powerful and in charge
- Reliable
- Successful and an excellent provider
- Protective
- Resourceful
- Able to fix or build anything
◊♦◊
I’ve been doing this work with women for many years, and when women articulate what they need in a man, some version of all of these are typically included on their lists.
(My husband is tortured by this mythical man whenever he compares himself to him, by the way; he calls him “The-Marlboro-Man-who-is-also-a-Poet”.)
Now, before anyone gets on my case that I’m saying only women are basing their selection criteria on what those instincts call for, men are also subject to basic instinct: wanting women to have a certain physical shape, to display signs of fertility, etc. – even if they have no interest in having children with her!
My husband Craig jokes about how often all the men at work “fall in love” with women who are shopping at his store, not knowing a thing about them other than the way they look.
So it’s not that anyone’s being “bad”, it’s just that these instincts are so strong, it’s hard to rise above them.
But rising above instincts is what needs to happen, if you really want to have what you say you want.
So what’s a gal to do?
- Be very clear that you’re going to be driven by instincts, and when a/your man shows any signs that he’s not being the “caveman” that your inner “cavewoman” wants, reel yourself back in.
- If he IS being the “caveman” you chose, help him “evolve” – not with judgment, but with appreciation and love for being the man you picked, exactly as he was.
- If you’re already in a relationship, look for the ways he’s meeting you in the evolved kind of relationship you want; where he’s interested in partnership, where he can share what’s really in his heart, where expressing vulnerability is rewarded with appreciation and love, where he doesn’t have to be taller/stronger/more resourceful than you are.Be a safe place for him to reveal his soft underbelly – and remember that it’s what you really want!
- If you’re single and dating, give those non-caveman men a chance to show you who they are. Take time to build a solid foundation based on what’s real, what’s important, and what will create a lasting and mutually-satisfying relationship.Fight the “cavewoman” instincts, and allow yourself to connect with and get to know some of the really good men who are out there, ready to be an awesome partner.
The truth is that, today, many women don’t need a man to protect them and provide for them. Women are quite capable of taking care of themselves and providing for themselves.
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I would love to have a man who can protect and provide for me. And yes, i need it, even if i am capable of providing and protecting myself. Why should i deny myself my natural instincts built up over thousands of years of evolution, just because a new fad says its not in style.
In my observation over many years, men will provide for you and protect their woman – if she’s a woman who is providing what he needs, too. Those are the most scrumptious relationships, when both are taking care of each other (and I don’t mean in a parental way, or unhealthy way, of course).
Thanks for your comment!
Karen
Karen,
The protect and fix-everything issue is kind of confused. The New Model Man is supposed to not have to do such things–they’re either not necessary or are contracted out to the inferior class such as cops, soldiers, firemen and mechanics–and even having the capacity just in case is suspect. Might mean the old patriarchal oppressor thing is under there, someplace.
That said, should we have a flood/hurricane/tornado/war, every man, New Model or not, had better produce like a combination of guard dog and plow horse. If he doesn’t, even those who scorned the capacities will despise him.
Karen,
“I always like to assign the best reason for things (it’s great for my own frame of mind), so I imagine it’s because there’s so much to possibly re-examine, and that work is inner-focused.”
I guess I feel the opposite: there is no compelling reason(s) why most women need to re-examine anything. Why? Most are getting out of life what they feel they deserve, if only short term.
Nor do I think most women are doing work that is ‘inner-focused’ in the name of men. I wish I could think so. However, I know it simply is not so.
Hey, Jules, It pains me to see how many men are discouraged about women, and what they think is even possible in a relationship with them. I guess one reason it hurts is because I WAS one of those women, years ago. I have worked hard, not only to learn about and appreciate who men really are, but to try to right some of the wrongs. I agree that there are too few women who are doing that kind of introspective work; for so many, the “fix” is to find a new (better) man. It’s way tougher (and scarier) to… Read more »
Well said Karen.
Thank you, Thanda. I appreciate your feedback!
Hi Karen ✺”Fight the “cavewoman” instincts,” ✺ I will not go into a debate about what is old instincts or not, because I am not qualified and frankly I think our ideas about men and women lived in the Stone Age is speculative. And they did not live in nuclear families. Maybe women fell for men with charm at that time just like they do today. Women today do not fall for the good provides so why think they did so in the Stone Age? You wanted more responds to your article. My list of wants is not like your… Read more »
Hi, Iben, I’ve been out of town, and am just catching up with this latest lively conversation – thank you for jumping in! I agree that it doesn’t make any sense to debate about what really happened when we were all cave-dwellers, and I by no means position myself as an expert, or scientist, etc. I do think that, as a lens through which to see things, it makes sense that things that worked, were rewarded, and had us survive, would probably stay fairly strong in our genes. I’m a huge fan of finding the best possible reason for why… Read more »
Hi Karen It is a pity we can not go back and witness how our ancestors lived. Somehow I think life in the Stone Age often was a good life,if the area you lived in had few dangerous animals, and plenty of seafood in the sea like it is along for example Scandinavian coasts. Maybe men were the providers and protectors of women at that time or maybe both men and women all contributed equally both in warfare and finding food . Maybe men used their stone ax to hit women in the head just like they did other men.… Read more »
Hi, Iben,
I think it’s fun to speculate and imagine, and you’re right – there’s no way to know the truth, so it’s left to our own interpretation.
Happy holidays to you, and here’s to a fabulous New Year!
Karen
Fernando,
“, by my limited experience, that American women are still too sexually castrated and just won’t talk that much about the male physical beauty, just like males won’t be able to be too “vain” or “showy” about their bodies). ”
Are they “sexually castrated” or are you atypical?
Now about your two lists… let me see. I never in my life, when making a silly list about what attributes a potential mate should have, listed : vulnerability, strong (do you mean this physically?), powerful and in charge, successful and an excellent provider, resourceful or able to fix or build anything. In fact, I didn’t list some of the other things you mentioned as well, but I can see me enjoying some of the other qualities. Vulnerability is a difficult term for me to understand. I believe what you guys mean about it doesn’t match our own views about… Read more »
@Fernanda, Great points! I understood all your points. Great job! I think here in America a lot of the qualities on the traditional list are far more prevalent with Caucasian/ White Americans. When you look at say Hispanic and Black Americans I do not see much of the sorts at all. I am a Black American male. So, I can tell you Black women do NOT view things the same as White women. Our history and priorities are quite different. Most Black women, and a lot of Hispanic women, see White middle and upper middle class women as spoiled whining… Read more »
Jules,
I am a black male also. I knew there was a reason I always agreed with your comments.
Cheers Bro!
Happy Holidays!
Jules,
I am co-authoring a short ebook with my brother that may interest you. It is a very niche book and you are definitely part of that niche, be sure to check my blog periodically.
@William@TWG,
What is your blog address? I did not see it in your comments.
Good Luck to you!
thinkerswithguts.com
Thanks.
Your list seems like it’s a great one for you, Fernanda. Well-thought out, based on who you are and what you want to create with a partner.
Karen
Hi Fernanda, and thank you for your contribution, I appreciate it.
May I ask, how do you define “vulnerability”, and what would you expect of emotional connection being in a committed relationship with a man?
Does “a good personality (compassionate, respectful)” include a man who is open to you with his insecurities, fears and shortcomings?
(English isn’t my mother tongue) Firstly, can someone prove these supposed “instincts”? I know females used to hunt back then, and the couples always split after copulating (or after the “baby” was born, controversies here). Most females in nature doesn’t need protectors or “providers” – they actually handle and protect themselves and their babies alone, even when living in groups. Most males (I can’t think of any species that do) don’t seek physical attractiveness – in fact, females do: the most colorful bird, the most appealing dance, the biggest horns and structure. Males only care for their smell when in… Read more »
Hi, Fernanda, Thanks for your very thoughtful comments here! Great! I think it would be more helpful, rather than looking for proof of these instincts, just see if that perspective helps to explain – compassionately – what’s behind some of the choices that women (and men) are making in their lives. Personally, I think they do. And if that doesn’t line up with your own POV, that’s absolutely fine, too! I don’t agree with your statement that most males don’t seek physical attractiveness. That’s not what I see/hear/experience. And again, if that doesn’t like up with your experience, that’s cool.… Read more »
@Karen you are correct. We women may not comment, but we are reading, doing inner work, and forwarding to our friends versus commenting ourselves (while subsequently feeling sad for and learning from some of the people who do comment) . Just thought you should know.
Thanks for jumping in, KayLyn – I appreciate it!
Yeah, it’s sad, isn’t it, when you realize what’s been happening, and what it has caused?
I’m grateful I “woke up” so many years ago, although by that point, I had left a man in my wake (my first husband – I have apologized to him and owned my part).
Here’s to a world where we’re all valued and appreciated for exactly who we are, and have the ability to partner in spectacular ways with each other.
Karen
@KayLyn,
I think it is great when we look within ourselves. After all, this is how we grow as people.
Do you think women share articles such this one by Karen with male friends? Wouldn’t it be a great idea? No to just share but to discuss, debate, and challenge?
I believe in free, open, and honest discourse. Sometimes such discourse can be rather uncomfortable. But, it needs to take place if we are to move forward.
Happy Holidays!
Karen,
Have you ever wondered why so few women comment on these kinds of posts from women such as yourself? Their silence is deafening!
Jules, you must have been reading my mind! I was pondering that, this very morning.
I always like to assign the best reason for things (it’s great for my own frame of mind), so I imagine it’s because there’s so much to possibly re-examine, and that work is inner-focused.
Everyone’s doing the very best they have access to, in any given situation.
I hope you’re headed into a fabulous weekend!
Karen
Karen, I bought your first book last year and was wondering what you were up to. **Everything I write below is extremely subjective and emotionally charged, I make no claim of objectivity or hard facticity.** I often *FEEL LIKE* we have to make 5-10% MORE than our female peers to be truly attractive partners and not make them feel like they’re compromising or settling. The 20k women want 30k men and the 40k women want 50k men. I really FELT this intensely while engaging women as friends and hearing them talk about their male partners. I really try hard to… Read more »
William,
Thanks for putting words to this.
I feel the same as you do.
Hi, William, Yes, I believe that what you viscerally feeling – that instinct women are driven by to have men be/have MORE – is going on a lot of the time. What’s encouraging is that I see it can change. In my work with clients, once that automatic drive (hypergamy) gets identified, and more consciousness can be brought to how they’re relating with men (including dating), women are able to choose men who don’t fit that “requirement”, and can end up in mutually-satisfying relationships. It does take work. It’s hard to leave the world girls were raised in (those dreaded… Read more »
@William and Karen, and FlyingKal Yes, there is HOPE! I do see changes in some of the young women, I mean young as in 20-25. They seem to be more comfortable in their skin. Also, many have grown up in single parent households where their was no man to provide and protect. Karen offers excellent advice. I met a massage/physical therapist about 2 months ago while enjoying a Happy Hour at the Macaroni Grille ($5 pizza and 3 dollar Yeunglengs LOL!). She was raised in a ‘blue blood’ family, specially ‘horse country’ here in Maryland. She was around 40, single… Read more »
Yes, Jules – there is hope! That’s a great story you shared – awesome…
There is another side to this, too. There are lots of women who’d be so happy to be partnered with a really good man (based on who he is, not what he earns), but they don’t necessarily have “the look” that initially attracts a lot of men.
We’re all impacted by these old, outdated, hurtful instincts. And, like you said, I believe there’s hope.
Karen
Karen,
Your comments were for me so content and association-rich that it’s difficult to formulate a response. It appears that the strength and dominance women are attracted to in men falls into decline in a relatively safe, resource-abundant environment such as ours, and that women’s instinctual responses are still wired for men who would be more likely to thrive in an environmental context that no longer exists.
Hey, William,
You’re right on the money – the reason for the “instinct” is not applicable in today’s (mostly) environment where we’re safe from sabertooth tigers, and food is plentiful! And yet, it’s such a strong drive. One that can be shifted, with a combination of awareness, and compassion for it.
Karen
@William, ” It appears that the strength and dominance women are attracted to in men falls into decline in a relatively safe, resource-abundant environment such as ours, and that women’s instinctual responses are still wired for men who would be more likely to thrive in an environmental context that no longer exists.” You are so correct! But, how do we get out of this trap? It is not just women, but also many men. Many men think these two lists are also valid and respond accordingly. Too many men think all they need is a great job and money. Why?… Read more »
Oh, and thanks for buying my book, William! (-:
Hi Jules
You write:
“✺Karen,
Have you ever wondered why so few women comment on these kinds of posts from women such as yourself? Their silence is deafening!”✺
One of the reason , Jules is that GMP posts so many new articles every day.
It takes time to browse through them and find the interesting ones.
And this article did not have a catching heading or photo.
I found this today December 15, and the debate is already over in this thread.
@Iben, Hello Iben! It seems to be a common theme on these type of post Iben. Many of the women simply do not participate. You will find this to be the case even on Huffington Post. It is as if they ignore things. Note Ms. Jones even laments herself why so few women engage in the debate. There is another post about online dating from a few days ago. Again, you have a paucity of comments by women. When I posed questions to specific women, the went unanswered Iben. https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/compatibility-questions-and-other-perils-of-online-dating-hesaid/ This is just part of the dismissive attitude by too… Read more »
Hi Jules This list is not universal. And why bring in the Stone Age explain women’s high demands in America 2013? Why do Karen think women in the Stone Age rejected men that showed any sign of ” weakness”. What is weakness? Is she talking about men that show normal human feelings as weakness? In the Stone Age I can imagine health was important, but also the ability to cooperate ,communicate and bond with others,and have intelligence,skills and knowledge. We do not know the social organization of Stone Age societies thousands of years ago. All we know is that they… Read more »
In the past on dating articles when men have stated that the mating choices of women can be as mercenary and cruel as men’s, a lot of women will post something along the lines of: Well, I certainly never chose men based on that criteria, and I certainly don’t know any women in my group of friends who did either. I am finally glad to see a woman mentioning this, because you can’t be dismissed as being a butt-hurt man who apparently is looking for love in the wrong places and he’s gotten burned by seedy women who populate these… Read more »
Hi, John D,
Objectification hurts everyone – and it’s something that we are all wired to do. It’s why I love to help women (I say women because that’s who I coach, and who I address in all my articles) understand the power of these instincts, and how harmful (and unnecessary!) they can be today.
Thanks for your comments!
Karen
I wish more would write in about this. I’m what you would call “old fashion.” And without going back onto the GMP archives, I can say that the impression I have is that the “old fashion” is truly a thing of the past and isn’t to be viewed as viable. In some cases the “old fashion “ is actually discouraged. IMO, the old fashion way of things means a real commitment and a heck of a lot of hard work that many today aren’t interested Personally for me, it’s a proven recipe that worked for my brothers and I and… Read more »
Men need women. Women need men. This is not a choice it’s an evolutionary imperative. It’s how we choose to engage that matters. Like it or not, every single human on the planet wants to feel safe and protected. Everyone wants to feel cared for. We can armour ourselves as much as we want but all of us are looking for the same thing. We just don’t really know it.
@Rannoch,
“Like it or not, every single human on the planet wants to feel safe and protected. Everyone wants to feel cared for.”
Not entirely true. Yes, we want to feel safe, as opposed to unsafe. But, I have no need to be cared for whatsoever. However, I do not mind caring for others.
Hi, Rannoch,
I agree with what you’re saying; everyone has the same basic needs, and we are all so much alike, underneath it all.
Thanks for your comments!
Karen
“Men need women. Women need men.”
I know quite a few gays and lesbians who would be inclined to disagree. 😉
Procreating may be a evolutionary imperative, but on a personal level it is hardly a “need” as in, a requirement for staying alive, like air, water and food.
Sure, if we choose to not procreate, our society or even civilization might become extinct when we pass on.
But then again, if there are no inheritors when we are dead, then who might be concerned?
@Tom Brechlin,
Whatever the modern American woman wants, rest assured it will be of temporary duration. Then its on to the next man.
So, much for “Building a life of shared values and interests.” Serial dating and serial monogamy rules!
Hi, Jules,
Thank you for your lively comments here…I appreciate your energy!
I’m not sure what else to add beyond my other replies here; I guess I just want to say that I am sorry for any pain you’ve experienced in your past with women.
Karen
@Karen,
No need to apologize for women, period. We all take our lumps in life. Just get up and keep fighting back. Never give up and never give in.
It is what it is!
Yes, I do have a lot of zeal and passion. Nor am I shy about calling things as I see them. To hell with political correctness. I see Honesty and Truth, period.
Happy Holidays!
Happy holidays to you, too, Jules…and here’s to Honesty and Truth!
So this is what women want? Connection Intimacy Awesome communication Honesty Vulnerability Partnership Building a life of shared values and interests AND – at the same time – men also have to be: Strong Powerful and in charge Reliable Successful and an excellent provider Protective Resourceful Able to fix or build anything Seems that some of these fly in the face of the modern women. Powerful and in charge? Ruhr oh…. What women are you speaking with? I’m not saying that I disagree with you but… Read more »
Hi, Tom, Thanks for your comment – I appreciate it! The paradox of “modern women” is that, on the one hand, they’re looking for independence, freedom, options, and on the other hand, they’re still looking for what could be called an “old-fashioned” connection with a man, where he’s the bigger, stronger protector/provider. I’ve seen it countless times with clients who have reached a level of success that is astounding, and yet, when they share what they long for, it’s often a man who is stronger than she is, who can protect her and provide for her. That’s why I wrote… Read more »
@Karen,
“The paradox of “modern women”
You are one of the very very few women who will admit to such. Kudos to you! It just seems to me that too many women just cannot let go of this hypergamy.
Hello Karen ,
I read your article and comments with admiration. It is refreshing to hear a voice of introspection from the female side.
I appreciate you and your insight.
Best regards ,
Mahmoud
Thank you, Mahmoud. I appreciate your feedback (and there are lots of women out there who get it – take heart!).
Karen
““Able to fix or build anything” again, what I’ve read here at GMP is that the definition of masculinity often times doesn’t include such things.” I can sew. I can mend clothing. As a guy, I see this as going *contrary* to the traditional male gender role. Then again, I’ve also assembled every stick of furniture in my apartment, other than an antique table… that has a sewing machine folded inside of it. It’s hard to be independent, as either a man or a woman, when you’re relying on the opposite sex to carry out common household tasks. It’s better… Read more »
Hi, mtgordon,
Thanks for your comments…and your mother sounds like an awesome role model!
My mother was fiercely independent (I’m not saying that’s how you’re describing your mom, by the way). One of the things I had to unlearn was her example of self-reliance-no-matter-what; I had to learn to ask for, and receive, help – particularly from men.
There’s an art, in a way, to being able to do everything for yourself, and giving someone the gift of being able to contribute to you.
Karen
Wow! Sex did not even make the list. (Intimacy is not sex).
Oh I forgot, sex is reserved for the men they do NOT want a relationship with. Got it!
Now,now Jules , as Ms. Jones stated, “The truth is that, today, many women don’t need a man to protect them and provide for them. ” So, they really don’t NEED a man period! Just make sure to keep fresh batteries handy. L.O.L.
@bobbt,
Note she did say ‘many.’ Not all.
As for fresh batteries, there is nothing like the real thing!
Hi, bobbt, One of the things that makes me sad when I read comments – and I’ve been watching this site since it’s early days – is to hear the depth of pain, frustration, confusion, anger, disillusionment, etc., that men express through what they write, whether they’re being funny, or sarcastic, or straight in their feedback. I want women to get how important men are to them. I want women to see the greatness in men. And I want to help women get to a place where they want men – where they choose men. Not because they need them… Read more »
Just where did I say that relationships with women have hurt me in any way? I happen to have been married to the same Woman for 38 years while helping raise 3 daughters and a son! What I’m saying is that in my lifetime I have been , I guess you could say , depending on your point of perspective, ‘Used’ or ‘Played’ from time to time, and the fact of the matter is I’m O K with that (Many times I in fact realized it). After all, I want to see my Wife and Children thrive and not to… Read more »
bobbt, you’re right…you didn’t actually say that women had hurt you – sorry if it seemed like I was putting words in your mouth
I can’t fully know what it feels like for men to have had the landscape of relationships change so profoundly; how (many) women no longer seem to need what men have provided – and happily, in so many cases. I have such empathy for men…and women are missing out. It’s a challenging time.
I appreciate your comments. Thank you.
Karen
@bobbt, ” It just gets me that now that many women are ‘Doing Well’ career wise (which I think is great) they turn to men and go Phtttt.. who needs you!” There are several perspective here. Women were NOT given the opportunity 30-50 years ago to be financially independent as they should. Financially, women do not need men to the extent they did 50 years ago. THAT IS A GOOD THING! Another perspective is from the male perspective. I personally do not derive my sense of self worth from being a provider and protector for my family (now divorced). My… Read more »
My knock against the modern well educated woman of today is their refusal to look at men who earn less (though such men might be well educated too but work in the Arts) than they do. It’s hypergamy pure and simple.
In other words they want to break free of the bonds of oppression that kept them out of the work place and making their own livelyhoods but they want to maintain the female privilege of expecting men to still make more money than themselves.
Having cake and eating it too?
I don’t think it was working class and middle class men who put women in bondage in the first place. It was/is the very men whom they seek to go after: the wealthier higher earning men. How ironic.
Look at human history. Why have women, voluntarily, agree to be mistresses and concubines to wealthy men?
Honestly, I really do not know what women want. I just know what I want from women. And, I focus on getting it! Women do exactly the same thing(s). When men start to recognize this, we will be a much happier species.
It just gets me that now that many women are ‘Doing Well’ career wise (which I think is great) they turn to men and go Phtttt.. who needs you! I look at the other side of that coin and just say in return. “I don’t need you anymore either.” For the longest time men were expected to be partnered up with women as a part of asserting to everyone they were doing manhood right. I’m glad that part of the changing state of masculinity is that being a man is no longer tied to being married to a women (or… Read more »
Hi Danny ✺”It just gets me that now that many women are ‘Doing Well’ career wise (which I think is great) they turn to men and go Phtttt.. who needs you! I look at the other side of that coin and just say in return. “I don’t need you anymore either.””✺ Two person can choose to be together out of love Danny, not because they can not cope on their own. Human beings are social creatures , we need to be part of a good tribe, we like company and need intimacy and sex. Life is easier for many of… Read more »