Professing my love for Gaga and Chelsea was a good thing, right?
My piece “Gaga & Chelsea’s Uncommon Connection” just went up over at Jezebel and the fireworks have begun. They really don’t like when men write about women, even with great admiration. Generally I get my rear end handed to me for making even the most flattering and seemingly thoughtful comments (really when this piece went up on our site and was the lead story on Huff Post’s Entertainment page yesterday, I had women from a news anchor to college students thanking me…but not at old Jezebel). Anyhow, the first comment out of the gate was my very favorite.
“I think Margaret Cho would blow this writer’s mind,” wrote Musty Chiffon. She was kind enough to insert this video, which I have now watched and frankly LOVE. You should watch it too. And go over there to Jezebel and engage these women in a real conversation about what a good man (and woman and human being) is.
I want to go out on a limb just a little bit here. I said a while ago that I was hoping to “retire” from posting here. But I didn’t try very hard to stay away. What can I say? I like trying to coax people away from petty, spiteful personal attacks and toward constructive intellectual sparring. I guess I’m just sick like that. But I’ve spent a lot of keystrokes here questioning what others have said. And while I think that’s important, I’d like to try contributing something new to the conversation. Something that I hope builds upon Tom’s… Read more »
Hello mm, It is interesting which perspective has primacy in this matter, Tom’s and mine versus Sara’s or yours. Im 36. I know grace jones from the post-disco era, james bond( I remember the breast shot in it – hubbahubba). She has a masculinesque face. I find her quite Amazonian, which is the character she played in james bond. I find her face attractive. her face is attractively composed with handsome strong architecture. However she is not conventionally attractive facially to men as a whole. And just because men as a whole don’t find her face conventionally attractive doesn’t mean… Read more »
Jameseq, I think we might be getting somewhere here, and I appreciate your (and others’) willingness to engage me (and others) on this line of thought. You said: “I find her quite Amazonian, which is the character she played in james bond. I find her face attractive. her face is attractively composed with handsome strong architecture. However she is not conventionally attractive facially to men as a whole. And just because men as a whole don’t find her face conventionally attractive doesn’t mean that they wouldn’t sleep with her. I seem to remember she was an ‘alternative’-pinup woman” You drew… Read more »
MM, you are arguing with an idiot who has the reading comprehension of a stump. He is being argumentative for the sake of it and stopped making sense a long time ago. He needs to ‘win’… hence his inability to be questioned: “Sit down and shut up.” What a moron…
James, You totally contradict yourself. Just moments ago you said what men (you) find attractive is conventional beauty. Then you say that Grace Jones is someone you find or found as attractive but is UNconventional. Do you not see how this contradicts? If you find Grace Jones facially attractive then it means she must be conventionally attractive… but you said she wasn’t. You actually proved *my* point, not yours. That conventional beauty… literally derives from the word ‘conventions’ which means… –adjective 1. conforming or adhering to accepted standards, as of conduct or taste: conventional behavior. 2. pertaining to convention or… Read more »
just because chelsea was in playboy doesnt mean she is conventionally attractive. it just means they wanted a photoshoot of a moderately attractive comedian, thats all. if she was not a comedian, she would not have been asked im guessing(i have no idea about the timeline, nor any idea who she is as im in the uk). lots of moderately attractive of women who are successful in another field are asked to pose then there is pretty much as many standards of beauty as there are penii in the world. is your argument that all ‘standards of beauty’ exist equally… Read more »
Hi again, Jameseq. You and Sara seem to be talking about 2 completely different things. Correct me if I’m wrong, either of you, but… James, you’re talking about what individual men find attractive, or “pretty,” particularly facially. And Sara, you’re talking about what criteria the culture as a whole uses to judge what’s “acceptable” in terms of how a “normal” woman *ought* to look in order to be considered attractive. Sara might not have insight to men’s minds in terms of what they find attractive, but she, like most people, presumably is aware of what qualities our culture at large… Read more »
One example that a lot of people have brought up as someone who doesn’t meet the minimum criteria for conventional attractiveness is Grace Jones. I recommend you do a Google image search for her. She’s an example of someone who falls outside the realm of conventional, “normal” beauty. Her style and her aesthetic are unusual, and for a lot of people, they are off-putting. Do you see the difference between her lack of conventional attractiveness versus the image that Handler and Gaga present? It has very little to do with how individual men perceive them, and everything to do with… Read more »
Tom, I want to start out by saying I appreciate what you are doing here with GMP. I am also in admiration of your willingness to be an ally. However, I am disappointed by your reaction to the Jezebel response because it shows me you still have a long way to go and perhaps there needs to be more tending of our allies, as feminists. Let’s start with the article itself. The main reason you got so much push back was because, if we are boiling down arguments to their core, the main thrust of your article was that Lady… Read more »
Sara …Second point, many commenters posted and tried to say that indeed while both are talented, being pretty did in fact help them get to be where they were. Im curious precisely how you, a woman, know the minds of men better than we men ourselves. Tom is a het man, Im a bi man. We are both telling you those two women are not conventionally attractive facially. Their faces are very slightly above average. they are not pretty – and that would be the opinion of most men. Who is more likely to hear uncensored lockerroom talk about who… Read more »
Where you get it wrong, James, is that conventional beauty is not just dictated by men’s penises. It’s cultural. Both men and women feed into what it means to be ‘conventionally’ beautiful. Also, if you are considering men’s penii as the arbiter of beauty… then there is pretty much as many standards of beauty as there are penii in the world. Men’s range of what is attractive is extremely wide– proof is going to a porn tube site. You will see everything from the bombshell with giant DDD to infantalized Japanese cartoons with huge eyes to BBW grannies. Your subjective… Read more »
Oh, and just so you know: Chelsea Handler was in Playboy.
If that is not consider the EPITOME of what is considered conventional beauty, I don’t know what is.
Just because you think she is ‘facially imperfect’ doesn’t really negate that she is indeed conventionally attractive.
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if i had a nickel for every time i was assaulted over at Babble by a gaggle of presumably undersexed and self-righeous women who totally misconstrued my point because of their general disdain for our gender as a whole…
Yes, alllllll the women who comment at Jezebel just need a good deep dicking. Those poor undersexed, dears!
I’m so sorry to hear you were assaulted though! That must have been terrible for you. Did you cry? Did you stand in your shower and just cry it all out?
PS: What a lot of Good Men, you guys have over here on this website! You should trumpet that somehow…
“…totally misconstrued my point because of their general distain for our gender as a whole…” This sounds SO familiar! I can’t quite put my finger on where I’ve seen that kind of thing before… Oh yes, here it is: “… a gaggle of presumably undersexed and self-righteous women…” Knew I wouldn’t have to look too far. Whatever your experiences with women have been, john, they clearly weren’t good, and I’m truly sorry they’ve left you so scarred and bitter. But right now, you’re the one spreading vitriol in grand blanket statements about a group of people. You even threw in… Read more »
huh, the formatting in my 2nd post currently in moderation due to links had the paragraph breaks removes. oh well . lol
Tom, what you considered to be withering contempt and invective hurled at you on that Jezebel thread. Is to a feminist how a Mistress naturally speaks to an unruly slave. On that thread they revealed to you, your true place in their world. You are an inferior, and you are an inferior, because you are a Man. You disagree…Then why were you assailed so Tom? Why While your piece was overly earnest [you have a ‘gee whiz’, wholesome apple pie manner about your writing sometimes ;-)], it didn’t warrant the bullwhipping your back received. Not at all. No way did… Read more »
I know I should probably just walk away from this. Silly me… “That the female is closer to the state of perfection than the male. More noble, more virtuous, more pure. That there is something fundamentally wrong with the male.” I’m curious where you’re getting this. Who is it that you believe feels that way? I, as a feminist, certainly don’t. I don’t believe most feminists do. I don’t believe most readers/commenters at Jezebel do. And I don’t believe Tom does. It’s interesting that you chose that quote from Jaclyn Friedman. I’m looking specifically at the part where she says,… Read more »
mm, “That the female is closer to the state of perfection than the male. More noble, more virtuous, more pure. That there is something fundamentally wrong with the male.” I’m curious where you’re getting this. Who is it that you believe feels that way? I, as a feminist, certainly don’t. I don’t believe most feminists do. I don’t believe most readers/commenters at Jezebel do. And I don’t believe Tom does. Those sentiments are explicitly expressed in rad feminist blogs like radicalhub dott wordpress dott com. And implicitly in mainstream feminist blogs. Unfortunately on this I can only give you the… Read more »
You have a point: there are people who believe this. (Which I, personally, feel is unfortunate.) But there are people who believe a lot of things. And I think it’s a mistake to ascribe one perspective — even a majority perspective, which I believe this certainly isn’t — to an entire group of people. More to the point at hand, I don’t think this belief was expressed in the discussion of Tom’s original post or in the discussion here on GMP. So to say that the reaction he got was a result of this kind of thinking seems, to me,… Read more »
The Jezebel Coven is hardly a bastion of rationality and even handed reporting.
File this one under… Whiny privileged dude can’t handle criticism, i.e. “I should be honored ABOVE NORMAL MEN because I am a FEMINIST!” Duh, there’s going to be controversy every time Gaga or Handler are cited in ANY context. Not personal, dude. (Or maybe it is, who cares. You chose to write this article.)
p.s.- Tom Matlack, a (hopefully constructive) criticism: using the term “old Jezebel” is condescending. Really. It just fuels the irrational/reactive fire. (Yes, we are not perfect either.)
Not perfect at Jezebel, is that why you published an article about how awesome domestic violence against men is and the comments section devolved into bragging and laughing about acts of violence committed against (in)significant others? Another gem from the comments section at Jezebel “2. Really, the only solution is to take over the country–we’re better educated and more tolerant and loving–and place men in camps and farms for heavy labor and sperm donation. Those who have other more mental skills that are useful (mathematics and engineering) and are not deemed a threat can have electronic monitoring devices that allow… Read more »
The comment you quoted is so insanely over-the-top that I think it is clearly satirical. Please see also: “A Modest Proposal” by Jonathan Swift.
There are plenty more where that came from, that aren’t so easily brushed off as satire, like the isn’t DV against men awesome celebration isn’t so easily either. You should clean up your own coven before you go out trying to police and control the speech in other areas.
Also, stop spreading tape myths.
Please see 6%: Please learn to math.
From the Jezebel-is-a-bunch-of-freaking-idiots-dept.
h tt p://noseriouslywhatabouttehmenz.wordpress.com/2011/07/06/6-please-learn-to-math/
Hi, APLoT.
Not arguing with you, but just wanted to point out that if you follow that link Jaded posted (minus the spaces), it makes a little bit more sense. I think “tape” was a typo’d “rape.” It’s not actually relevant to Jaded’s argument (if you can call it that), but the post is slightly more coherent than it first appears.
Jaded, I’m just one person. It’s not my “coven.” Just because I read Jezebel doesn’t mean I have any control over what others there say. I’m also not trying to control the speech posted here, but simply responding to it.
If you could point me toward a celebration of DV against men, then maybe I could respond to that as well. But at the moment I’m not sure what you’re referring to.
I can see just four comments, but the readers were bragging about serious acts of violence against men, and the article itself is minimizing DV.
htt p://jezebel.com/gossip/domestic-disturbances/have-you-ever-beat-up-a-boyfriend-cause-uh-we-have-294383.php
that said, you are right to call out men that pedastalise women like our Tom does, so carry on with that.
Jaded, I think I see what you’re talking about. But I disagree with your conclusion that the article or the comments are actually promoting DV or trivializing it. I believe — though I could be wrong here — that the article and the comments were presented as a way of shedding light on an uncomfortable truth: that women commit DV against men, too. It’s a way of trying to look at things fairly, instead of claiming that women are never the bad guys. On the other hand, if you select “All” comments and look through them (I did, though I… Read more »
Precious, you were able to both figure out what I meant and follow the link to the blog post about Jezebel selling rape myths to its readership.
Why do feminist women despise feminist men (or men who support* the female supremacists) with more relish than they do nonfeminist men. *Regarding the term ‘male ally’. I note how the colder, more exclusionary word ‘ally’ is used, rather than the warmer and more inclusive ‘supporter’
Why do feminist men tolerate being treated in such a waspishly dismissive manner. Are a great number of feminist men emotional masochists?
Why do you support a movement that so clearly loathes you
HUH?!?! Proud feminist here, loves (appreciates) feminist men. I had no problem with Matlack’s article, and can’t imagine why others would either. (Even though I don’t particularly like either Gaga or Chelsea, and don’t think either remotely represents me as a woman, I’m baffled why anyone would find his article offensive.) Anyway, Jameseq, don’t paint us all (feminists) with the same brush. Some people over-analyze, and make mountains out of molehills (that means you too). I don’t buy into it and you shouldn’t either.
I’m a female feminist, and I love men. I know lots of feminists who do. Part of the reason feminism is important to me is my love for men– especially my eight-year-old son and my boyfriend. I want to create a world where my son feels like he can be rough and tumble poke mud with sticks (age-old little boy passtime) and still give hugs and be sensitive and nurturing and compassionate. I want to create a world where my boyfriend doesn’t have to feel so terrified of being vulnerable or talking about his feelings or crying because those are… Read more »
Oh, dear. Jameseq, I’m truly sorry you feel that way. (Or maybe you’re just trolling. Either way.) “Female supremacists”? I don’t think I know any feminists who believe — or want — women to be supreme over men. It’s my understanding that the core of feminism is the belief that all people, regardless of gender, are simply human. Most of us have a range of different men in our lives, some of whom we love, some we like, some we feel neutral/ambivalent about, some we dislike, and some we loathe. Sexism and misogyny are cultural, and since men are a… Read more »
Just wanted to add — and this is part of the whole non-supremacy, we’re-not-enemies thing — that the flip side of misogyny being cultural and men being part of the solution is this:
Since misogyny is cultural, women contribute to it, too. It’s part of the society we all live in.
Allow me to paraphrase mm here. “A feminist man is a wonderful thing, but [a feminist man is not exactly a wonderful thing].” As an ally, I have to say: NO we are not “ALL” trying. That’s the premise of the grievance. When it comes to guys, some of us are trying very hard. Others are not at all. It’s clear that mm didn’t think out that phrase, and that makes me think she went into autopilot. I also have to call BS on the “Lipservice” thing. (1) One of the core elements of feminism is attention to language. (2)… Read more »
Ronyo, I apologize for what you have pointed out as some lazy wording. I’ll try to respond with more clarity and precision. I absolutely 100% meant that a feminist man is a wonderful thing. A lot of wonderful things aren’t perfect, and questioning aspects of a person’s approach to an issue doesn’t mean that I don’t appreciate and support the effort he is making. To the contrary, I think it’s one of the most important forms of support, because discussion of different viewpoints makes the whole movement stronger. As for us all trying… You’re probably right that what I said… Read more »
that was awesome!!! glad you clarified AND pushed back on my failure to properly contextualize what you said. we’re def. on the same page, and I will eventually muster the gumption to venture into Jezebel comment sections and engage, if only to continue expanding my own view of the site’s community. if/whenever you get the chance, i am interested in learning about Jezebel commenters tearing one another to shreds. is it an arms race to extremes, or are there different factions in the Jezebel community that break down along different systems of values/perspectives, or some third option I’m missing? feel… Read more »
Hi Ronyo, I’ an occasional commenter on Jezebel and all I can say is that there are a wide variety of people (not just women) who post opinions there. Mostly I think there is a spirit of competition to be funny, clever, articulate and insightful, and that’s true whether people are responding to a fashion article or having a deep discussion about feminism. It’s why the comments can be such fun to read. Check out the comments on an article about fashion or celebrities (most guys visiting the site skip those) and you will see plenty of debate and over-the-top… Read more »
Ronyo, glad I could redeem myself slightly 🙂 And grateful that you were open to listening, and that you’ve been sharing your thoughts as well. I for one would welcome your contributions at Jezebel, if you do decide to visit. The attitudes and goals of Jez commenters are impossible to sum up, I think, but I’d say that on substantive, controversial topics, what you said about factioning according to values/perspectives probably hits closest to the truth. Particularly in cases where issues of race or class are involved, because some commenters are unable to see those sides of a conversation and… Read more »
Musty no blood no foul. LOVED the video you posted. Thanks mucho.
I’m internet famous!
To clear things up, I hope that you didn’t take my comment with animosity. I liked your ideas and thought I’d add to your conversation by showing one of Handler’s contemporaries. I think Cho’s approach and embodiment of weight/sexuality/appearance/minorities has challenged mainstream views of womanhood as much, if not more than Handler & Gaga–and she’s someone who is considered an American minority.
Don’t let the Jezebel posts get you down. Handler and Gaga are really polarizing figures on there and your post conjured up a perfect storm of venom.
Oh. I’m a guy.
Are people assuming the worst case scenario about your intent/person? Oh, totally. Personally, I think that the “attack mode” was really unwarranted.
However, I hope that you’re to drain the bile from the comments and see that there are some valid points. Lady Gaga and Chelsea Handler are not exactly the feminist icons you make them out to be…and I think that’s valid, and that there problematic aspects of their personas.
“and was the lead story on Huff Post’s Entertainment page yesterday”
Matlack, you’re the most persistent name dropper on the whole internet. Nobody toots their own horn as obviously as you without just saying they’re doing it. It’s fun, it just might be the thing that makes you special.
Mr. Matlack needs the approval of feminists and their ilk in order to feel good about himself. He does most of what he does not to create genuine dialogue, but because he needs that “good boy” pat on the head and affirmation of his value as a “good” man. He didn’t get that from the Jezebel folks, so he’s here in mom’s kitchen to pout about it. He’s the boy in school who steps in to “save” a pretty girl from her mean boyfriend and then is shocked that not only does the boyfriend laugh in his face, but the… Read more »
I didn’t see anything mean directed towards Tom on jez.
I don’t understand this response.
Tom, I suggest you take a look at the comment sections of other stories so you can get a feel for the commenter’s humor, and so you can see how critical they are.
They aren’t dissecting your work for the sake of being mean, they do it because of the freedom granted by the forum, in an effort to achieve a better understanding of the world and to maybe learn new ways of thinking.
Tom, I haven’t totally parsed out my own feelings on your article (still working on that) though my first impression is generally possitive. AndPreciousLittleofThat made those comments with reference to the comments in response to a different Lady Gaga article that appeared on Jezebel the day before. In that thread APLOT had been defending Gaga’s right to self-identify as bisexual and that said identiy was not necessarily relevant to her activism. Since I was involved in much of the discussion on the earlier article, I’m inclined to believe that APLOTs feelings toward your article, while critical, were generally possitive (as… Read more »
“They really don’t like when men write about women, even with great admiration.” I appreciated your article and really agreed with certain points. I’m a major supporter of Lady Gaga for lots of reasons that you touched on, and though maybe the two people you chose aren’t the best examples of boundary-pushers (for reasons that other commenters have discussed), they certainly are extremely visible, popular ones, and I believe you’re right in your assertion that it takes a great accumulation of these “anomalies” before a paradigm shift can happen. But the things you’ve said in the comments and here have… Read more »
Ooh, another minor thought.
This “admiration” thing. It reminds me of misogynists who claim to love women because they’re sexually attracted to them. Or, alternatively, the White Knight complex, where women are to be put on a pedestal and protected. I think that for most feminists, while it’s very nice to be admired, it’s far more important to be respected and treated as a whole, complex, unique person.
Jill– First off, this is some of the more constructive criticism I’ve heard, and you make a valid point. Second, I don’t think he meant that it was a surprise to him that women could be appreciated for more than their looks. I think he meant that the fact that they are both loved for more than their looks by both men and women on such a large scale is socially significant, which is true. You know, my boyfriend has this complex. When we talk about feminist issues, he’s terrified to chime in because he fears a you’re-just-a-stupid-man response. I… Read more »
I agree that it is tough to be a man who wants to comment in a serious way on gender issues on a feminist blog. I once made the mistake of joining a discussion on Jezebel about an issue involving race, and I was attacked rather strongly by a couple of people for a comment that I intended to be positive. I was called a “privileged white girl” and a racist because I tried to say something positive about people of color. I felt very defensive about it initially, but I eventually realized that my comment had sounded condescending because,… Read more »
“When you go looking for errors, you’ll find them, no matter how well-intentioned the person may be or how many perfectly sound points they make. Frankly, it makes me sick.” I don’t think there’s any need to add that last insult, as it seems like a good example of the venom you’re taking issue with. And I think maybe you’re refuting your own point by saying that readers looking to pick apart an argument will always find ways to do so — Jezebel readers are always minutely critical and focused on deconstructing the ideas that are presented to them. The… Read more »
Hi Tom, I read Jezebel and I read your articles on GMP, despite the fact that GMP has the slowest loading comments of any blog on the internet — seriously, can you fix that? 🙂 I don’t agree with people who trash you in a mean way but I do think this posting, and others you’ve done, strike the wrong note. It’s like you want a pat on the back for being an enlightened man because you like conventionally attractive female celebrities who, hey, have some talent! It’s like you are saying, hey, I’m a great guy because when Lady… Read more »
You have a feminist ally here, Tom, first and foremost because I appreciated the sentiment of the article, even if both of these women do meet the social normative standard or beauty. The points you were trying to make… that Lady Gaga’s message encourages people to be more true to themselves and that Chelsea Handler has made her name as a witty and intelligent woman first and beautiful woman second… were not lost on me. This sniping is counterproductive for so many reasons. It spreads negativity and builds walls where there should be bridges. We should all be focusing on… Read more »
Your argument simply sounds like you’re saying that feminists need to be nicer or else they won’t get the allies they need for their movement. Once again, women are being told that they need to accommodate the ignorance of men, holding their hands every step of the way to “feminist enlightenment” until they pick up the banner and become great allies of feminists and using their male privilege to make the world a better place for women everywhere. Feminists have been fed this line for years, and for some reason I still can’t find the throngs of enlightened men waiting… Read more »
I’m wondering if it was a mistake to write somewhat of a rebuttal post so early? The original article was just posted this afternoon and you are already jumping to distract people from general criticism of your article by pointing fingers at the audience. I don’t blame you for wanting to defend a piece that you obviously put a lot of time and great thought into, I think that is a knee jerk, very human reaction. However, to be truly receptive to any criticism, be it harsh or subtle, you need to allow yourself time for the hurt feelings to… Read more »
I don’t agree that they are revolutionary. I do think that they owe a great deal to their predecessors but I also believe that they speak their message to a new generation who may not have the hindsight to see from where these two have evolved. I remember (with no small degree of embarrassment) that I had to ask my mother who that scruffy homeless looking guy was on “We Are the World” when that came out in junior high school. It was Bob Dylan. I had no idea who he was. If Chelsea Handler owes her career to Joan… Read more »