Welcome to the Beauty Myth, boys.
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Over the last couple of weeks, some news stories were brought to my attention that illustrate a problem I’ve been observing for a few years now.
The first was the latest in a long line of Photoshopping scandals. What made this interesting was that rather than some already-stick-thin female model being slimmed down even further or women of color having their skin lightened or their features made to look more caucasian1, the subject in question was Justin Bieber. The website BreatheHeavy.com released what were supposedly unretouched photos of the Bieb – photos that suggested that Bieber’s muscles and package got a Photoshop-based enlargement. Of course, Bieber’s legal team went into overdrive, insisting that the “before” pictures were the altered ones and forced BreatheHeavy to retract them.
The other was an article in Esquire UK, where the author decided to spend three months in a quest to become – in his words – “totally ripped”.
What strikes me about these stories is how they play into a new and pernicious narrative – the new standards for male beauty and how the quest to live up to them has been taking a deadly toll on men.
The Beauty Myth Vs. The “Spornosexual”
In his article The Rise and Rise of the Spornosexual, writer Max Olesker decided he wanted to explore what he saw as the new trend in young men – predominantly men in their early 20s, but many ranging up to their 50s – to sport bodies reminiscent of modern porn-stars, sports heroes and of course, movie stars. To many men, the lean-yet-jacked look has become de rigueur – the ne plus ultra of masculinity.
…the man who’s athletic and in shape but still someone you might see at work, is dead.
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Of course, it’s hard not to feel that way when it seems like every time you turn around, another shirtless man with 4% body fat and abs like phwoar is staring at you from television and movie screens, in every advertisement and video game that comes down the pike.
In what seems like a sick parody of gender equity, men hear more and more about fitness “success” stories from other men. Hugh Jackman tweets his workouts to get into superheroic shape with “fitspo” slogans like “if the bar ain’t bending, you ain’t lifting.” Chris Pratt – having gone from chubby schlub to wash-board-ab-bedecked guardian of the galaxy – gets asked over and over about how he achieved his transformation. Zac Effron traded in an almost feminine beauty in his younger days to look like something that – quoting Seth Rogan’s character in Neighbors – a gay man designed in a laboratory.
When you browse Tumblr or Pintrest, you can’t help but see women drooling over Chris Evans as Captain America or Chris Hemsworth as Thor or the men of Magic Mike oiled up and strutting their stuff. In Hollywood, being built has become mandatory – even from people who aren’t typically action stars. The everyman hero – think Bruce Willis in Die Hard, Will Smith, Keanu Reeves – the man who’s athletic and in shape but still someone you might see at work, is dead. Now to be a movie star means having visible muscle striations in your pecs and a perfect runner’s girdle pointing at the family jewels. If you’re going to be a leading man in the hottest movies and TV shows – your Supermen, your Thors, your Arrows, even romantic comedies – you can’t just look good with your shirt off, you have to look perfect.
The cruel irony, of course, is that men are now feeling the same pressures that women have been feeling for generations – to conform to an incredibly specific form of beauty. And of course, those who don’t measure up are taught that they’re failures – that they are inherently less desirable, even less manly, than the shiny-chested, leaned out Dolce and Gabana model. At a time when men already feel sexually invisible and desperate for validation (or even acknowledgement), being told that being sexy means being lean and jacked at all costs.
Welcome to the Beauty Myth boys. Hope you survive the experience.
The Hypermasculine Origins of The Beauty Standard
“Is that what a real man is supposed to look like?” Tyler Durden asks, pointing at an underwear ad – perfectly airbrushed abs hovering over tiny tighty-whities. In Fight Club, this is a moment of supreme irony; Tyler, of course, is played by Brad Pitt whose lean build is the Platonic ideal that Olesker and others strive for. He already looks like that model – better, some might say.
Of course, the other irony is that Tyler Durden is the manifestation of the nameless protagonist’s id; he is literally the hypermasculine ideal that Ed Norton’s character wishes he could be. Small wonder that he’s also the representation of what men feel they’re “supposed” to be.
See, despite what we tell ourselves, the male beauty standard isn’t about what women think men should look like; it’s brought onto us by other men.
The ideal man – the peak of male beauty we demand others conform to – falls in line with the tropes of hypermasculinity and traditional gender roles. You have to be tall – short men aren’t “men” after all. You have to be lean, as lean as possible, because being fat means that you’re lazy and pampered and a man is active. You have to be muscular because men are strong. Men are fighters. And of course, you have to be virile, because men who don’t get bitches just aren’t men. Man as protector. Man as provider. Man as warrior.
We see these men lionized in television and film, on magazine covers and billboards – a look and lifestyle that is literally marketed to us. Gerard Butler’s Leonidas in 300 is the cinematic ur-example – you don’t get much more alpha than the totally jacked king of the Spartans – but the Internet provides its own real-life swole-models. Witness the so-called “King of Instagram” (there’s that “alpha” leader title again), Dan Bilzerian. His Instagram account is photo after photo of Bilzerian shooting guns, partying with porn stars, lounging around his mansion and private jet.
Those pictures all carry the ironic echo of Tyler Durden: “All the ways you wish you could be, that’s me. I look like you wanna look, I fuck like you wanna fuck, I am smart, capable, and most importantly, I am free in all the ways that you are not.”
Yes, we’re told. This is what a “real man” is supposed to look like. So start catching up, wuss.
Male Beauty and the Impossible Body
The objectification of men has followed the same path as the objectification of women. The “ideal” female body is a study in contradictions – athletic yet still soft, petite yet still curvy, thin (thigh gap, yo) yet still busty. And – most importantly – it’s supposed to look effortless. The work that women are expected to put in to chasing the ideal is expected to be invisible. The “cool girl” rant from Gone Girl captures the dichotomy perfectly – they should be drinking beer and eating steaks yet look like they exist exclusively on salad.
So it is with men. Men need to be muscular but lean, able to party hard and guzzle booze and beer like their bros on The Jersey Shore or The Only Way Is Essex but still maintain those perfect abs. And of course, it’s supposed to be natural. Yeah, you can post your CrossFit workout to Instagram with inspiring-yet-still-aggressive hashtags like #doyouevenlift, #brosdon’tletbrosskiplegday and #noexcuses, but talking about your diet? Well you better not get too specific bro, because that gets too close to being a chick. Yeah, you can #eatclean and #gopaleo – manly ideals those – but too much talk about salad and you might as well be checking into a pilates class2 and handing your testicles to someone who can put them to better use.
The problem is that this ideal body is almost impossible to achieve. Olesker inadvertently points out an unspoken truth: that gaining (and maintaining) the perfect masculine body has to be your job. In his quest for ultimate male beauty, Olesker has to eat and work out on a schedule so rigid that he’s forcing himself to scarf down chicken breasts on the bus as he scrambles to make it to the next work out. It’s one thing when you’re a writer being paid to do a feature or a CEO who can dictate his own hours and schedule; it’s another when you’re working a standard 8-5 in a cubicle with only a 20 to 30 minute break for lunch and an hour’s commute each way.
Those movie stars and models are literally being paid to work out and eat “clean” – usually at levels that the average joe can never meet. Neither are they paying for the meals or the nutritionists, or the trainers or the gym-time; the studios pay for it all, often delivering the food to their stars in order to maintain their workout schedules. Jason Momoa was eating 56 chicken breasts a week in order to play Khal Drogo. Chris Evans, Chris Pratt and Hugh Jackman all were putting in multiple 90+ minute work outs each day to get into shape for the movies. And this is before they set foot in front of the camera; getting ready for filming usually involves intense dehydration to make those muscles and veins pop, pushing diuretics and sweating out the last drops in order to get that perfect look. Even their height is frequently an illusion. Robert Downey Jr. is 5’8″ and Tom Cruise is 5’7″ – they just appear taller on camera by the magic of apple boxes and convenient ditches.
What also goes unmentioned is the secret weapon: testosterone and human-growth-hormone injections. What, you thought Hugh Jackman – in his 40s – got that vascular just by choking down chicken breasts?
Even then, those perfect muscles and idyl male beauty get an assist. Just as with women, those men are given a boost with some traditional Hollywood and Madison Avenue magic – carefully planned lighting, artfully applied make-up and, of course, Photoshop.
Moreover, even the celebrities – again, whose job it is to model the ideal – don’t look like this year round. Stephen Amell looks like a Greek god (and, incidentally, sends me to the gym) every time he takes his shirt off to do the salmon ladder, but when he’s not filming, he goes back to a more normal shape. Yes, he’s still fit – again, his full-time job is to get camera-ready within eight weeks – but he doesn’t look like Ollie Queen.
But the impossible male beauty doesn’t look “fit”, he looks “perfect” at all times… no matter the cost.
The High Price of Perfection
As I mentioned earlier, the pressure for men to measure up to this impossible ideal is a cruel parody of gender equality; we’re rapidly approaching the point where men and women areequally fucked up about our bodies. Just as women have for generations – since the invention of the daguerrotype, some say – men are starting to pay the price for male beauty.
Body dysmorphic disorder is on the rise in men. Studies have found that nearly half of all men are dissatisfied with their bodies and up to a quarter of people suffering from eating disorders are men.
What makes it even more patently absurd is the sheer damage that we do to ourselves trying to achieve and maintain that ideal look. 5% body fat is not natural in humans and comes with immense health risks. The stress on the body – from the unnatural level of body fat, the intensity of the workouts and the pressure on the psyche – can damage one’s internal organs and weaken the immune system, leaving them vulnerable to disease. The cheats that many people use in order to maintain their bodies – taking ephedrine to counteract those beer-binges – can cause immeasurable damage as well.
And when I say “impossible” body, I mean it. Having the “perfect” body isn’t just built in the gym or on the dinner plate, it’s built in the womb. Genetics and bone structure dictate far more than can be achieved via workouts. The barrel-chested guy with the short waist (like, er, me) is never going to have the swimmer’s build. The ectomorph isn’t going to get the swole arms and chest of Brad Pitt. If you don’t have the right combination of genes, you can work out as hard as you want, starve yourself as much as you can and still not get those picture perfect abs.
And this is without getting into the other issues such as food availability, hormonal balances and more that affect health and weight loss.
As a result, we end up with higher levels of depression and self-loathing. When we mock the “fat, cheeto-dust-covered nerd” we perpetuate this hate. We continue the idea that there’s only one way to be attractive, that there’s only one way to be a man. And when we we feel that we can’t measure up… there’s a price to be paid.
But attractiveness isn’t about looks or impossible standards of male beauty. It’s a matrix – it’s inhow you act, in how you dress, in how you make others feel. It’s in loving yourself, no matter whether you look like Zac Effron or Seth Rogen.
Yes, there are body types we all enjoy looking at. But appreciating them doesn’t mean that this is the only type that we want. It’s possible to enjoy staring at Chris Pratt in Guardians of the Galaxy and still prefer Chris Pratt in Parks and Rec. And yes, there will always be shallow people who insist that physical beauty is the only thing that matters. We call these people assholes. And why would you want to date an asshole in the first place?
Be fit, sure. Be healthy. But fit and healthy – just like beauty – comes in more than one shape.
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Originally appeared at Paging Dr. NerdLove
This was something I never knew that goes on in men’s life I’ve been looking at stuff to help get inspiration for a like I am writing and stumbled upon this fare reading this i can see it now. I can look at my guys friends and see it, see that chewy have to do to just fit in at school and every year the standards of men and women get more and more impossible.
I do agree with how masculinity and male beauty’s is now a array of different things and how men are now facing the same dilemma women have faced for many years, because of how movies and media are portraying men as physically fit, tall, well groomed, and “attractive” but in reality not all men are like this.
you people dont understand how easy it is to look like a greek statue, all you have to do it eat right and work out 5 times a week and hit every muscle. you can work out one hour in the morning and one in the evening and you still have 22 hours of your day left. you need to sleep 8 hours a day as well if you want decent growth hormone production by the body. you now have 14 hours a day left to do other things than working out. and i can give you a great tip.… Read more »
“Easy”?!?!? OMG.
Listen….I do all that and MORE. Much more.
I look nothing like a greek statue or even the package cover of a pack of hanes briefs.
Sometimes it’s just NOT gonna happen. Metabolism, body type, genetics, etc. I’m always gonna have this spare tire around my middle and I count carbs till the cows come home and it’s just not gonna go away.
16 years ago I was in reasonable shape. Breakdancing 6 nights a week and weights kept me trim… Now married and with a 6 year old… I haven’t made the time to exercise… At Christmas while wearing my Cap America t-shirt, my brother patted my tummy and gave me a great pep talk to help me get motivated to get in shape. Cut out sugar/soft drinks/cake… gym before work etc… 2 months in and although I am slimming down quickly, I’ve discovered the healthy lifestyle actually gives me more energy to play with my son… That’s the best discovery of… Read more »
Most guys are very attracted and turned on by “the girl next door”. A girl who is no overly fat, and has a very common and simple body. She doesn’t need to go to the gym, nor have a crazy all encompassing diet. However, the standard being set by the Hollywood boys these days requires insane gym time and absurd diets. It’s really not the same thing. Guys actually have it much harder than the girls.
form my experience only women care about men’s height
Good article. It’s a shame Erin is trying to detract from the conversation by needlessly focusing on women.
“The main premise of this article is around how the impossible standard of male beauty actually comes from expectations men have about themselves and is also reflected in the way they also objectify women.”
One of the main premises of third wave feminism is to deny that the impossible standard of female beauty actually comes from expectations that women have about themselves and is also reflected int the way they objectify men.
I think you’re right that being stronger and leaner is more popular nowadays. It used to be the thin and sporty look that was popular, while being burly was considered lower class. So people jogged and played tennis and whatnot. Now being quite muscular is considered ideal. So people lift weights and eat more protein.
Both sets of standards are unacheivable by some… but most people can get there with a pretty reasonable exercise and nutrition lifestyle!
It does not take that much effort to get in good shape….. 2-4 gym sessions a week and eating consistently enough….. while the above hollywood examples may be in great shape…..there is a big difference between that and most people who are simply out of shape….. I’d be careful on using the word impossible for something that is readily attainable by anyone….. even if working a 8-5 with a commute…
It is an odd theory that sets forth the notion that hyper masculinity is driven and enforced by men on men, and similarly, that hyper femininity is also driven and enforced by men on women. Eventually, we will look back on OP ED pieces such as this and laugh at the naiveté of its ideas and even feel a bit nostalgic about the good ole days when social tyrants were clearly identifiable. Another option is to recognize that physical beauty can take a lot of work, like any other endeavor, can be obsessed about to extremes, like any other endeavor,… Read more »
Actually it makes sense since it’s still mostly men making choices about what men and women will see in pop culture and entertainment.
I know you feel that way Erin, but you are too far off base in this belief.
I do agree though that it is exactly this belief that informs most gender analysis.
Elissa, simply saying I’m “too far off base” with actual no argument to back it up doesn’t convince me of your way of thinking. Perhaps it’s you that’s “too far off base”? Or perhaps you could actually give some instances that disprove my belief?
Erin ,see if you can find this article
Judith Curry :
10 signs of intellectual dishonesty.
I am sorry I am not able to copy and paste.
In any debate intellectual honesty is important, crucial in fact.
Silke I was able to find it easily. Thank you so much for providing it. That article should be mandatory for everyone on the internet!
And Judith Curry is mostly citing an article by a Mike Gene, including the list “10 signs…”
Just to give credit where credit is due.
Have ever viteted a web site for prison pen pals ? Men in prison have muscles. And it is easy to understand why they feel they need it. I guess they need muscles because they are afraid of the other criminals. But it is not a natural environment for a man to live like that . I am certain prison as punishment was invented by men. They separate men from means the most for them : work,sex,children,status….. In facsiscm, and extreme right wing group you also find extreem maculinity and hate of women. And look at Boko Haram and IS,… Read more »
“I am certain prison as punishment was invented by men.”
Of course.
I actually think they were originally designed to separate people who commit crimes, from the rest of society and most opportunities to continue commmitting crimes against that society. (And also to provide the powers that be with cheap labour).
Still I do not understand what you mean when you refer to “the choices women make”. But you do not have to say more about that….
As in when women choose to guys of a certain type. Be that wealthy, buffed, etc… Or when women choose to insult men about their bodies, wealth, etc…
When men talk about and choose women that way we make it a point to note that men are saying these things or making those choice but it still feels like we are trying to go easy on women when they do similar.
Danny
yes I understand what you say. And women often feel like you do.
I could write a long list over situations where society and men do not go easy on women when we act against traditions,norms, and what is expected of us.
I have no problem with men that marry women younger than themselves,maybe because I have lived with a man 17 my junior and my last man was 21 younger than me.
That fact that some men want a new family and a women that can bear children does not harm me at all.
What if women aren’t usually “insulting” men’s bodies in the way we usually associate with the word, e.g. with slurs, laughter, etc., but it is more of a silent-treatment-thing? That there’s always a degree of indifference, no matter what? It’s the invisibility issue again.
I don’t get turned on by random men and their bare chests and bulging muslces. These images do absolutely nothing for me. That doesn’t mean I am indifferent to men or that I am not physically attracted to them.
And I don’t get turned on by just any random woman, no matter the size of her bosom or curvature of her hip…
What’s “bare chests and bulging muscles” have to do with it? Are you saying that you don’t get physically attracted by any man, unless you are in some sort of a relationship with him?
For example. Men’s genitalia is referred to as “junk” man i hate that word as a descriptor. Probably as much as women hate other descriptors for their nether regions. Although i would never refer to theirs, ever, as junk. Nor the other word (s) either that i know they think of as vulgar.
See, despite what we tell ourselves, the male beauty standard isn’t about what women think men should look like; it’s brought onto us by other men. See my own experience tells me otherwise. Its not men who told me women don’t like fat guys. Its not men who told men women like bad boys. Its not men who told me women go for why with lots of material possessions. Its not men who told me that size matters in the bed room. No it was women who told me this. Now I’m totally with you that women are misguided about… Read more »
Haha, last week I read about the concept of the fundamental attribution error and since then have been in love with it. It explains so much. I feel it is at work here as well.
Straightforward example, isn’t it?
I suggest that men and women alike are misguided by the collective subconscious (whose negative aspects may be termed the Patriarchy), which we all – men and women – are equally responsible for upholding.
Hi Danny
May I ask what you mean when you say
“But how long are we going to keep giving women excuse after excuse for the choices they make and the influences they have?”.
Hi Silke. What I mean is this. Why men make sexual comments about women there’s plenty of speculation about “how do those things affect women’s esteem?” “do the things men say have any influence on what their sons will say about women when they grow up?” “how do daughters feel when they hear their dads say such things?” All valid questions that contribute to the conversation of how we talk about things and how people respond to them and how people are influenced by them right? My question is why do we seem to rarely ask these questions about commentary… Read more »
Thanks for you answer Danny. I agree with you that both men and women should treat the other and talk about the other with respect. Still I see you and live in cultures that are so different that I can not grasp what you say,as I am not used to women that talk to men or about men the men you mean. I see women be bossy to their man,I see demanding women, ,but I do not see women that are cruel to men about their body, among my friends or family that talk cruel abusive insentiv way about mens… Read more »
FlyingKal
Our conversation ends here.
If you see me as mocking you then I withdraw from any further dialogue .
Or you could prove me wrong by continuing a dialogue…
Right now you mostly give the impression of coming here to deflect any argument about men being to any extent sexually invisible, by asking how our situation is, and then dismissing any shared experience by questioning if that really can be applied to all men.
You never answered my question why you could sympathize with older women, but not with men?
You also not answered my question why you thought I was speaking for all men when sharing my experience?
It is not just the jacked or even really fit look that is the issue of attractiveness, but the entire underlying reason it is attractive. It’s at least a great part of media psychology playing an over the top fantasy of those aspects we naturally are attracted to. Big breasts mean good baby milk provider. Strong men mean better mammoth provider. Hell even quiet brooding men may mean good planner to get mammoth. But today’s version is completely about taking that inborn trait and making it so much more to feed upon and nit for any good it does us… Read more »
Actually, the standard around women’s bodies today doesn’t have much to do with what is actually biologically true. Huge breasts, under weight females that reach their peek in their teens is actually the opposite of what circumstances achieve maxium reproduction standards. For one thing, under weight females have more problems conceiving because they usually have irregular periods. 26 is actually the age women reach their fertile peek even though our society fetishsizes teenage girls. And having big breasts and a tiny frame is at odds onto itself because breast tissue is just fat. Getting breast implants actually disables a woman… Read more »
Who said big boobs actually mean milk? Thin frames good baby provider? All I meant was is that if boobs provide milk then they, media, used the typical American point if some is good more is better. It is as I said media and culture speak that takes basic human cues and magnifies them over the top and we buy it hook line and sinker as a reality. Its all a psychological game with them.
You said earlier, “Big breasts mean good baby milk provider.” How is that not saying “big boobs actually mean milk”?
I already said it was the media twisting things erin. The operative word was actually. Otherwise i’d have used the word “really”. When it became profitable to objectify women then someone figured out how to do that and today they are figuring out how to do that with men too. that is much more than merely just swooning over sinatra or valentino because of the near nudity being portrayed. The focus is on the body to sexualize it and that is the manipulation of media. Like playboy does.
Btw implants do NOT inhibit milk production. The implants are under the milk glands and breast material. My ex wife had implants and all 3 of our kids we produced were fat little breast fed babies. More than enough to go around, she could’ve been a wet nurse too. Is that fallacy another feminist argument about why one shouldn’t get implants?
I stand by the points I’ve made through out our conversation Mark. And no…it’s not a “femininst argument”. it’s a medical argument around concerns any woman should have should she decide to get implants. Not everyone who has breast implants can nurse after. And usually they can’t tell if they can or can’t until after they have a baby. So yes, having implants cab affect one’s ability to nurse or feel pleasure in their breasts. There is no gaurantee to either after getting implants. But why should women feel they need to get implants to begin with? We certainly don’t… Read more »
Black men used to be inspected and purchased based on their physical appearance. So go ahead and keep kidding yourself that this goes back only a decade or two. This has been happening for centuries, and it’s perpetuated by BOTH men and women. Once again mainstream white feminism gives a Eurocentric view to an issue impacting more than White men, completely ignores Black women and intersectionality, and does it in a way that minimizes the cultural impact and consequences. Male beauty standards are nothing new. And it’s not “men” who deemed height a required trait. It’s not even men that… Read more »
Oh bullshit jules. First it was erin driving it to feminist slavery now you’re doing it with race. I understand you want to internalize yhen express yourexperience but it just isn’t a truism for personal beauty. Penile size is strictly out of porn having nothing to do with millions of years of desired trait. The vast majority of women are very happy with the average to even slightly smaller than average penis because it fits the average vagina better and with more ovetall comfort. Now the strong young potential slave of any race over history was not admired for his… Read more »
Hi Mark
Yes of course slaves was taken to be used as workforce, but who says the slave traders at that time did not see the value in sexually attractive persons?
As far as know slave owner also exploited slaves sexually,both men and women.
When we look at slavery in the world today in 2015, sex is a huge part of it.
Human beings were as sexually interested several hundred years ago as they are today.
We are sexual beings.
What, pray tell, is “femininst slavery”? You’re ridiculous Mark.
🙂
Feminist slavery is all that you have espoused Erin. Playboy, beauty industry, porn, misogyny pick them all. You keep bringing up these themes. I’m not denying your particular views and experiences- I clearly said that. But its almost always a one way street with you.
How is it a one way street with me? I’m seriously trying here so don’t blow me off.
Seriously trying? You haven’t changed your mode in years of commenting here.
The only thing that has changed is your increased inability to hide your misandry.
You won’t accept generalisations about women but heap them 6 feet high about men.
You are ok with yourself going off topic to minimise male experience but dare not should anyone do the same to a woman.
When my Son returned from Afghanistan with 30 lbs. of upper body muscle added to his already lean frame well , lets just say he was noticed by lots of women( I laugh still seeing in my mind that Women trying to put coats on her 2 young kids totally unable to take her eyes off him). we go out to a bar in Louisville and the female bartender is chatting him up. Then her shift ends and she nearly moves across to the other side of the bar and continues! Look, this isn’t some new phenomonem When I was… Read more »
Harris
You write men are sexually invisible.
I am a woman and disagree. But let me open the link and see what more you write about it.
Heterosexual and bisexual woman are sexually attracted to men. So how men in a society then can be sexyally invisible is impossible unless you wear burkas.
But maybe I misunderstand what you say,
Women as they age( 60-70-80……) often say they become sexully invisibel in the sense that men no longer look at them and find them attractive.
How can that be the situation for “MEN”?
I’ve had women explain to me: “Women look so much better than men. All those soft curves, and smooth skin. They are so much more sensual. Men are utilitarian, not beautiful. Yes, I am heterosexual. No, I don’t want a to see a man nude, it’s disgusting. Yes, I feel aroused by men, if I have an emotional connection. No, I prefer it when the people on magazine covers are women. No, I’m not lesbian.” Can you make me understand that position? I don’t and neither do most other men. All we see is that no woman ever turns her… Read more »
Hi Theoreama
NO I can not make you understand those women, because I do not understand them myself.
And to say another persons body is ugly or part of the body is abusive behavior the way I see it.
Maybe you once should ask any of these women why they dare not develop this emotional connection they want so badly with a man they find physically attractive. and ask them how they imagine sex with be then.
It’s an interesting subject, and I’ve seen it come up on a number of (predominantly female) discussion boards over the years. And I admit that it’s probably in no way a statistically representative base of any kind, but it’s still give some insight into something interesting. It seems by rough estimate that maybe half of the women (by their own testimony) can be attracted to a good-looking man based on looks alone. While the other half react something like you describe, that they don’t find men attractive by definition, they claim to not even pay attention to someone’s looks, but… Read more »
FlyingKal
Is this European or Scandinavian women you talk about?
I have never in my entire life heard an Scandinavian woman say a mens body and penises are ugly,but I have heard women in US say so and also men in US say this was what their mother told them when they was small.
Scandinavian, Swedish, yes.
And I have the impression that Theorema resides somewhere in central Europe (Germany? Please correct me if I’m wrong), so I have a hard time seeing this as isolated to USA.
Also, my position is that we can hardly control what we’re attracted to, so my intention is not to “call out” anyone seeing the male body like this. I’m just bringing it up as a (small?) piece of the puzzle as to why women in general may seem less overtly attracted to the male body, than vice versa.
Austria, actually. But for all extents and purposes, the situation is the same as in Germany.
Still, I stand corrected. Thank you for the reply. 🙂
Silke,
When I was in my 30’s, I was in a relationship for 5 years. Most often my girlfriend was in the bed reading while I prepared for the night. I think I can count on my fingers the times she would divert her attention from her magazine and take a look at me while I undressed…
So tell me, why do you recognize elderly women being sexually invisible, but not men?
Funny you should mention that. It is the same with my girlfriend, except in her case it’s the laptop computer. Mind you, I’ve been working out for a while and have never been in better shape in my life. She swears she is looking, but I very rarely catch her at it. I think she once said that women are taught to look clandestinely. Right now I tend to believe that she is just not that interested.
Theorema,
Well, my girlfriend never even bothered to claim that she was looking in the first place.
FlyingKal
If you say ALL MEN are invisible sexuallly then I wonder where in this earth you live.
But of course different cultures have different norm for”acceptable behavior” for a woman, and different social classes in the same society have different rules.
A friend of mine was in an Arab country with his wife and told me how the women with covered faces (niqab) contacted him with their eyes and flirted., I believe him.
Silke,
I am not ALL MEN, obviously, but neither is Mr Jackman and Mr Pitt. And who do you think the average man feel more in common with?
if I’m sexually invisible even within a supposedly sexual relationship, how do you think I fare in public?
FlyingKal you are a well educated man and know you can not use your experience with one woman and say since she did not fancy you then no woman will.
Silke, Sharing my personal experiences, I thought it was pretty clear I was only talking about myself. Also Harris makes a point in the linked article that he’s talking about “some” or “many” men, not ALL of them. Since you asked for the situation for “MEN”, can you really expect ANYONE to be able to speak on behalf of EVERYONE? “FlyingKal you are a well educated man and know you can not use your experience with one woman and say since she did not fancy you then no woman will.” Two points specifically regarding this: 1. Nowhere in that post… Read more »
Fitness ,masculinity and good health become a journey, a journey more people have embraced as of late. I accept I won’t get to Jackmans’ heights, but I train hard and eat well. I aspire to improve through hard work in all aspects of life. Buff dudes are inspiring and have motivated my journey. I’ve got results and I feel great!
So we just feel sexually invisible. We’re not actually sexually invisible. If I felt bad about it at all I’m sure that ‘reality’ would straighten me right up.
On the other hand being sexually invisible means I’ll never suffer from a body image problem. There’s always the good and the bad of anything.
“The perfect masculine body has to be your job….” In grad school, my BF (now hubby) was in stellar shape: 2 hour bike rides and intense weight lifting at the university gym or at home on his weight bench with his housemates….25 years later, real life sets in…we still go to the gym a few times a week but, yes, you do have to set more modest goals….we tried doing those “Insanity” workouts on DVD with my brother while on vacation…it made my husband almost light-headed and nauseous! I think one has to see beyond the muscles and the Hugh… Read more »
Well he is not single anymore. Once a woman is married she “lets herself go” even if it is just not as much time doing nails and so coordinated outfits, and men gain weight and don’t try to be so buff. You won. You attracted your soulmate. Now onto the next step…keeping them fed with a roof over the head.
Oh I agree…the contents not the container is what makes a marriage last!
But before that…nope.
It is about the initial attraction. And that is why in college…and high school…the guys were working out so many hours.
So she has to look perfect (hair, nails, etc) in addition to feeding and housing him? While he gains weight and makes no effort? Honey, if I were into women I would save you from that hell… If you are, in fact, living it. P.s. Try a day in my life if you think you are being judged harshly!
So true david. I read an article on steroid abuse by High School teens and they stated 80% of them DON’T play High School sports. Leia, go back to the moment you first met your Husband and ask yourself this and be honest, if he was 30 lbs. overweight with ‘moobs’, would there have been that initial spark of interest?
bobbt– That’s a fair question…actually, when I first met my future BF (now hub) in grad school, it was under the most unromantic scenarios…suffice it to say we were both wearing large, shapeless gowns and the surrounding fumes were ghastly…he asked me some dumb questions (to which he probably already knew the answers to… he was breaking the ice!) and I gave him some smartass answers…I felt relaxed enough in his presence to make funny banter…and he listened instead of trying to show off how much he knew…yes, it was a nice discovery to find him in such fit shape….and… Read more »
Leia, I’m not insinuating in any way you married the guy for his body. You come across as a much deeper person than that. All I’m saying is in the initial spark of attraction, when you know absolutely nothing about him. It at least got your attention and you decided to have a more through ‘look’. It’s the way we humans, men and women, do things
See, despite what we tell ourselves, the male beauty standard isn’t about what women think men should look like; it’s brought onto us by other men. And apparently despite what he just wrote about women on tumblr drooling over chiseled celebs. Cogency is nice. Btw – most men couldn’t give a fig about whether women shape up to the exact standard the media peddles, but it’s almost always men who are blamed for it nonetheless. Just as women have for generations – since the invention of the daguerrotype, some say That is just fabulous. A technology that was incredibly rare… Read more »
Yeah, not buying “It’s all the menz fault” meme either. That’s 40 something Women drooling over Hugh Jackman (Daniel Craig too). Those were women filling movie theaters across America, hooping and hollering to ‘Magic Mike’ (as well as the ‘Real Thing’ on which it was based). You don’t see guys like Jonah Hill or Kevin James shirtless unless it’s for comic effect. Men just react as to what they observe. When we look at old photos from the 70’s and 80’s and the current generation laugh and says “What were you thinking with those clothes?” I just tell them “Hey,… Read more »
It’s not men’s fault. It’s that traditional gender norms were set by men in a time when men had all the power, and those norms are still considered common sense today even though we now know they’re incredibly harmful and unrealistic. Plenty of women buy into it and perpetuate it. Women who do that, especially women who’ve heard from men about how painful it is to be judged like that – [don’t] fuck ’em. It’s shallow, it’s harmful, it’s unnecessary. Just because it’s part of patriarchy doesn’t mean that women don’t have any responsibility in perpetuating it. I vote we… Read more »
Not that I disagree necessarily. No one with a life should be compared to another who works out 5 hours a day.
When a movie clears over 200 million with a 95% female audience, I don’t care if it was made by a man, woman ,or Gremlin, WHOEVER made said movie hit upon something Women want!
Also all the movies and franchises you mentioned were written and directed by men. I’m going to reserve my judgement about what women generally actually want (as if person preferences for attractiveness are that easy to generalize) until they have much more representation in those kinds of positions, and aren’t just represented by what they consume when Hollywood decides to aim a franchise at them That is scarcely reason to refrain from criticising women’s role in all of this. Men are regularly blamed for allegedly harmful images of women promoted by the material they merely consume, never mind have no… Read more »
Hey Bobbt, so you dislike that age appropriate women find Hugh Jackman (an age appropriate man for 40 something year old women) attractive? Hey, be thankful your wives and girlfriends and daughters aren’t consuming media that is just waiting for the day males are “barely legal” enough to sleep with and fetishing everything from school girls to babysitters. Also yeah, you don’t see guys like Jonah Hill and Kevin James shirtless. You also don’t see Melissa Mccarthy in a bikini. But do you know what you do see a lot of? Older male actors with younger hot babes in significant… Read more »
Oh good, Erin is here once again to make sure we all know that she would really rather be talking about how women are affected by this issue. Because, as we all know, there is absolutely nowhere she can go to discuss that. At all. Seriously, Erin, why are you here? It’s obviously not to learn about how men experience body issues, because every time the topic comes up you rush in here to remind everyone, again, that these things affect women too. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a post from you where you haven’t immediately diverted attention back… Read more »
Isn’t it obvious why I’m here 8ball? I’ve come to rain on your parade and be the black cloud of womanhood raining fire and brimstone down upon you. I’m the cackling Wicked Witch of the East, running around screaming “..and your little dog too” as the great female evil. I’m here to be a Heffalump to your Winnie-the-Pooh. Skeletor to your Heman. Poison Ivy to your Batman. I am the Hellmouth to your Buffy. Mr. Murkey to your Rainbow Bright. Smoking Man to your Mulder. I have done absolutely nothing to hinder conversation about the way men experience body shame.… Read more »
Really? You’ve done nothing to derail the discussion? So you’re telling me that if I went to a women’s site, and on an article about suicidal women and started writing about how suicide affects more men than women, you would have no problem with that, whatsoever? Really? I mean, I would just be “lending my voice as a man” after all.
It’s amazing how Erin wants everyone to respond in the way she sees fit. I didn’t know you were a moderator Erin.
Preach it!
Hallelujah! Got to admit, it was fun thinking of all the nemsis. Ironically, I had the biggest crush on Fox Mulder when I was like 14 and watching X-Files. Ironic huh for all the times I lampblast porn? lol
See 8ball, I can laugh at myself. Lets be friends.
Erin, I have no problem with ‘over 40’ women or any age group for that matter salivating over Jackman, Pitt or any other ‘Hot’ guy. I’m nearly calling O’malley on his statement that this ‘Hot look’ is a male creation. As I stated below, this isn’t something new (Valentino in the 20’s, Sinatara in the 40’s, Elvis in the 50’s etc.) The difference is that today, older women, not just teenagers, are allowed to express their preference without being shamed, and I say again, that’s a GOOD thing! By the way, older women with younger men; J-lo. Maddona, Katie Couric,… Read more »
Well said!
I agree with part of your post, however women do face more scrutiny about their looks than men do. I blame the media for their unrealistic standards of beauty and have never bought into that crap.
I agree with you too Dom, as in discussing this article with my wife I saw her defensiveness rise because of the media pressures on women, and even she said it’s about time men feel the same thing but we’ll never get a thimbleful of it that women get, and I think she’s right about that. She spoke about the whole beauty industry and the ads and the Hollywood gowns and all of that. It just proved my point that media and money is the driving force behind all this and real people need to wake up to it and… Read more »
“Btw – most men couldn’t give a fig about whether women shape up to the exact standard the media peddles, but it’s almost always men who are blamed for it nonetheless.” – Oirish Entertainment and enterprises that prove men do care very much about women’s shape and meeting preresquite standards of female beauty: 1. Playboy – Notorious for photoshopped, young beauties. Popular in times before the internet where to be a man was to own a copy of Playboy that later his son could “steal” to peep out. Thus reinforcing a standard of female beauty and sexuality to the upcoming… Read more »
You’ve really got an issue with men dating younger women, haven’t you Erin? Aside from “I don’t like it”, do you have any actual argument against it? As to your list of examples – by this logic, one can damn women as easily for liking just as narrow a spectrum of men. There is a thing such as male conventional attractiveness for a reason, and it is driven by women’s choices. But as always – men are responsible for everything that besets them, and women can’t be held responsible for anything. “If you are interested in some of my own… Read more »
Am I that obvious? *blush* I do have an issue with men and how they in general treat women. Which affects both younger women and older women alike. Do you have an argument around why I shouldn’t? Don’t you often bring up issues you have around how women treat men? Yes, I do have an actual argument against it. In a world where increasing numbers of men are beginning to fight against old stereotypes and tropes long held against men, the image of masculinity and fatherhood being predominant themes, also what a man’s role should be in a relationship and… Read more »
I would also like to note that your post is more of the same as 8ball was. Simply attacking me and diverting attention from the discussion instead of directly addressing my previous points which you sure as heck no are well made.
It is easier to attack me then actually thoughtfully consider the points I bring up and discuss them.
Yes, I do have an actual argument against it. In a world where increasing numbers of men are beginning to fight against old stereotypes and tropes long held against men, the image of masculinity and fatherhood being predominant themes, also what a man’s role should be in a relationship and no longer wanting to held to standards of “provider” and “bread-winner”, it’s time for men to also start to shake the tropes and stereotypes they have long held on to regarding women. Which means a shift in relating to women in healither ways that aren’t fueled by a primary interest… Read more »
First, I don’t even have any idea how this deterorated into conversations that are putting me down instead of simply challenging my comments with debate that did not include making some pretty brutal personal attacks. Now that is out of the way… You make me sound like a truly terrible person. And maybe I am. Maybe how you see me is the real truth about who I am. Maybe how I see me is the lie. Maybe I really am mean-spirited, maybe I really am this awful person you’ve described, maybe I just aim to hurt, and misrepresent people because… Read more »
First, I don’t even have any idea how this deterorated into conversations that are putting me down instead of simply challenging my comments with debate that did not include making some pretty brutal personal attacks. Almost every time you respond you lead with how your feelings are hurt.. That is going to have no currency with people who express their feelings and are regularly IGNORED in this environment – people who deviate from orthodox opinion on gender equality. Appeals to feelings are disingenuous for that reason – plenty of the things people like you do and say hurt our feelings,… Read more »
You take absolutely no responsibility for your insults and behavior Oirish. You attacked me and my character. You insulted me with some pretty awful accusations. So yeah, I totally reserve and am owed the right to feel bad about how you’ve butchered who I am in attempt to paint me as this awful person you described in your post and therefore, discredit my opinions and ideas. Seriously? You’re going to rip my character apart and them further tell me I’m not allowed to be hurt that you did it? What in the world is wrong with you? That is messed… Read more »
Seriously? You’re going to rip my character apart and them further tell me I’m not allowed to be hurt that you did it? What in the world is wrong with you? That is messed up. This is exactly what I’m talking about when I say you regularly misrepresent people. Nowhere in my comment did I say anything of the kind. I said that arguments of the form “but my feelings are hurt by this” aren’t going to have CURRENCY – i.e. they aren’t going to be given much heed – by people whose own hurt feelings are REGULARLY IGNORED in… Read more »
I have tried several times now to post a response to this last response of yours Oirish. Apparently, you are free to be as degrading and abusive as you please but me responding to that is unacceptable.
I will leave with this. Your responsies are abusive and degrading. The way you have spoken says more about who you are then who I am. And it’s a shame that’s the extent of your ability to hold a conversation.
Erin, I for one would be interested in your story. Why don’t you put it write it and submit it to the G.M.P. for publication. It might give all of us an insight into all these rants (most of them off topic) that seem to pop up.
You know Bobbt, being dismissive to my comments by labling them “rants” (which kind of suggests a dismissive and condsending attitude to the things I have to say) kind of proves that you are not very interested in what I have to say either way. I put a lot of thought into my comments and I do my best to be a critical thinker and apply what I know to the topic at hand in how I see it. There is nothing that seperates me from you. There are lots of people who responded to this article in different ways… Read more »