Society pressures men to initiate sexual relationships, yet punishes them when they’re candid about their desires.
This is an article about men, but I’m going to begin by talking about women’s experiences. Many of us women go through our daily lives fending off unwanted male attention; most of us have worried about being attacked by men.
If I stroll down a city street or take public transit alone, I can count on being approached by men I don’t want to talk to. If I walk home after dark, I can’t help fearing assault—so much so that if a man or group of men come near me on the street, I feel my heart lodge firmly in my throat until they pass.
So it’s completely understandable that we’re all on high alert for predatory expressions of male sexuality. While certain situations and certain people deserve the designation “creep”—like, say, the guy who once leered at me as I walked out of the public library and whispered, “I can smell your pussy”—most guys really don’t.
The pressure put on men to be initiators, but to avoid seeming creepy or aggressive, leads to an unpleasant double bind. After all, the same gross cultural pressures that make women into objects force men into instigators. (How many women do you know who proposed to their husbands?)
So how can a man express his sexual needs without being tarred as a creep? After all, the point of promoting sex-positive attitudes is for everyone to be able to be open about their needs and desires, right?
♦♦♦
When I was 23 years old, I was still coming to terms with my S&M orientation, and so I posted to an Internet message board about how “illicit” desire was messing up my life. Soon, I received an email from a guy in my area. He accurately guessed the cause of my anxieties (“either you want some BDSM play, or you maybe want to add other partners into a relationship”) and offered to fulfill all my wicked, dirty lusts. In fairness, the guy actually referred to himself as creepy during our text-only conversation—but I still feel guilty that when I told the story to my friends, we all referred to him as “the creep.”
I obviously had every right to turn down my Internet Lothario. Still, I shouldn’t have called him a creep; all he was doing was being overt and honest about his desires, and he did it in a polite—though straightforward—way. If he’d emailed me with “Hey bitch, you obviously want me to come over and dominate you,” then that would have been impolite and unpleasant.
But he emailed me a quick and amusing introduction, then asked what I wanted. After a few rounds of banter, I called a halt, and he respected that. I think the word “creep” is too vague and prejudiced to mean anything anymore. But if I were willing to use the word, I’d say my Internet suitor was the opposite of a creep.
♦♦♦
Although I’ve become more aware of it recently, I think I’ve always had the sense that men are particularly vulnerable to the judgment of “creep.” Over a year ago, I wrote a series of blog posts on the problems of masculinity, and in Part 3 I noted that—unlike men—”I can be explicit and overt about my sexuality without being viewed as a creep.”
Of course, I could be labeled a slut, which could damage me quite badly. There’s a reason I do all my most explicit writing under a pseudonym. Feminists often say that men’s promiscuity is lauded while women’s is stigmatized, and one point of this argument is purely linguistic: “stud” is a complimentary word for a promiscuous man, while “slut” is a hurtful word for a promiscuous woman.
Besides, our culture hates sex, no matter who’s doin’ it—even vanilla, consensual, heterosexual, private sex between cute, white, married adults is hard for some folks to acknowledge.
But in fact, men aren’t merely enabled to be promiscuous—they’re pressured to be getting laid all the time. This influences situations ranging from huge communities devoted entirely to teaching men how to pick up women, to the tragically callous dismissal of the experiences of men who have been raped.
And while there’s immense cultural repression of all sexuality, there’s also a fair and growing amount of modern TV, movies and feminist energy that seek to enable female sluttitude in all its harmless, glorious forms. The stud vs. slut dichotomy is worth discussing, but it has one flaw: it entirely ignores the word “creep,” whose function appears to be restricting male sexuality to a limited, contradictory set of behaviors.
Feminist blogger Thomas Millar writes, “The common understanding of male sexuality is a stereotype, an ultra-narrow group of desires and activities oriented around penis-in-vagina sex, anal intercourse and blowjobs; oriented around cissexual [i.e., non-trans] women partners having certain very narrow groups of physical characteristics.” Men are supposed to be insatiable only within those bounds. Men who step outside them—for example, heterosexual men who are attracted to curvier women, or who like being pegged with a dildo in the butt—are either mocked or viewed with anxious suspicion.
Worse, men who talk a lot about their sexuality, or who make any slightly unusual move (like sending a friendly proposition over the Internet), can run afoul of the pervasive tropes around male sexuality: that it’s inherently aggressive, toxic, and unwanted.
Under these circumstances, mere semi-explicit conversations become fraught territory. A male, S&M-oriented friend of mine told me about a girl he once spoke to while volunteering at a large feminist organization. She started a conversation about how she was coming to terms with her queer identity; she no longer wanted to have sex with men, but with women. He said he could relate, and described his feelings about coming into his S&M identity.
The next day, he got a call from the intern coordinator telling him to get back in the closet. “Turns out what I thought was discussing who I was, came across as hinting that she should participate,” says my friend. “The thought never crossed my mind—she was, after all, telling me that she didn’t want to have sex with men. But the cultural constructs around the conversation intervened between what I was saying and what she was hearing.”
As one masculinity thread commenter named Tim observes: “The only way for a guy to guarantee that he won’t be called ‘creepy’ is to suppress entirely his sexuality, just like a woman can escape being called a slut by suppressing hers.”
Another commenter, Sam, notes that it’s often difficult for men to “realize that being sexually confident and assertive is not tied to politics,” and that some men feel so much anxiety they hire experts to coach them through just asking a strange woman where to find Internet access.
These anti-male stereotypes have an incredibly broad effect, and not just among individuals. Calls to censor porn, for example, are influenced not only by extreme claims that porn access increases rape (it doesn’t) but by feelings that mainstream porn expresses an unacceptable form of male sexuality.
It’s certainly true that the kind of sex represented in mainstream porn isn’t for everybody, which is why there are lots of other kinds of porn out there (including feminist porn). However, I’m reluctant to condemn any kind of consensual sex in itself, including consensual sex as represented in mainstream porn. Plus, as commenter iamcuriousblue claims, many condemnations of mainstream porn incorporate a ”view of masculinity itself as inherently hostile and dangerous” and a tacit claim that male sexuality “needs to be kept on a short leash, where men’s viewing of violent or pornographic media is restricted, either through community pressure or state action, lest the dumb beast of a man get the wrong ideas.”
If we’re worried about people learning the wrong things from mainstream porn, then we should be giving everyone unflinchingly detailed sex education so that everyone understands just how limited mainstream porn is. Men aren’t dumb beasts—no more than women are wilting flowers—and stereotypes are easily defeated by a complete picture of the world.
♦♦♦
I’ve got three suggestions for how we can all start taking down awful conceptions of male sexuality—and the word “creep” with them.
1) Sam summed it up best: “Accept male desire, and accept men’s word when they talk about it.”
Like most people, men want sex, and that’s not a bad thing. Like everyone, men deserve to feel as though their sexuality is hot, awesome, delicious, valuable, and can be pleasurable for all parties in a consensual situation. Just as women shouldn’t have to feel exploited when they have consensual sex, men shouldn’t have to feel like they’re exploiting someone when they have consensual sex. Just as more and more space is being made for forthright discussion of female sexuality, more and more space should be made for forthright discussion of male sexuality.
Of course there are inappropriate ways for men to express their desire, just as there are inappropriate ways for women to express their desire. For example, it’s not okay for people of any sex to continue hitting on someone after that person has clearly asked them to stop. It’s not okay for people in a position of power, like employers or clients, to use their position to harass or sexually intimidate people under their authority.
But these situations are a far cry from creating more dialogue in appropriate places—like gender-studies classes or blogs—about male sexuality. They’re also a far cry from giving men like my S&M friend the benefit of the doubt when they join conversations about desire.
2) “Male sexuality should be approached from the concept of pleasure rather than accomplishment,” writes machina, a blog commenter.
Linking sex to accomplishment rather than pleasure also leads to some men caring more about getting it done than their partners’ consent. Additionally, men are under so much pressure to get busy all the time that even when they’re having sex, their own pleasure may be less central than meeting the stereotype of how dudes are supposed to get laid. For some men, the stereotypes do represent their desires; for some, the stereotypes don’t work at all. A man who’s the top partner in anal sex with his girlfriend might be scoring big according to popular consensus—but if what he really craves is for her to peg him with a strap-on, then he’s not actually scoring at all. Even a guy who contentedly loves anal sex might have the chance at mind-blowing sexual paradise if he decided to risk something new, to think outside the box.
3) Which brings me to my last thought: Let’s work to discourage sexuality that’s actually predatory or non-consensual.
Obviously, most people aren’t rapists, and as HughRistik says: “I don’t think an individual man deserves to feel that his sexuality is toxic merely because he is a man and other men have displayed their sexuality in toxic ways.” But assault and harassment are real problems, causing real anxieties. (And not just for women. I’ve heard stories about how men’s boundaries are routinely ignored; one example is women who, while exploring naked fun with some happy gentleman, will initiate condomless sex without even asking if he’s cool with that.)
It’s incumbent upon all of us to discourage that kind of thing when we see or hear about it, no matter who it comes from. It’s also incumbent upon us to honor one another’s boundaries. But this is not a question of limiting or repressing male sexuality, and it shouldn’t be framed that way. It should be framed entirely as a question of consent, communication, and respect.
Thanks so much to all the commenters who have participated in my sprawling manliness threads: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, and The Followup. Particular thanks to those who have stuck with The Followup, which has over 1,200 comments and is still evolving!
© 2010 Independent Media Institute. All rights reserved. This piece originally ran on Alternet.org.
About Clarisse Thorn
- The pickup community actually improved my dealing with woman and people, then society has with “just be yourself” and “you’ll get her someday”.
Ridiculed for not approaching woman
Ridiculed for not approaching individual woman the “right way”.
Ridiculed for assuming that there’s a one size fits all way of approaching individual woman.
- The Player gets more flake for being open about his sexuality than the Slut does, there’s more acceptance and promoting of the Slut.
- Nowadays men are mocked or viewed with anxious suspicion for being attracted to younger woman and skinny woman.
If you’re attracted to curvy woman, you’re ok.
If you’re attracted to younger/skinny woman, you’ve obviously been influenced by your peers and society to be attracted to that.
- Automatic suspicion if a man isn’t in a relationship and/or doesn’t show any interest in being in one.
You’re either considered bitter towards woman cause of past relationships or in the closet.
There’s more promoting in our society of the independent woman than the independent man.
Clarisse, I understand your argument but I don’t think I quite agree. While it’s certainly true that all men should not be punished because some men are rapists, the fact remains that the rapes occur and some men truly are creeps. Until very recently, men have always been allowed more sexual expression than women. Women have been expected to satisfy all of men’s desires and keep their “needs” under control, and consequently the focus is always on MALE pleasure, ignoring the needs of women. This is, for the most part, still true. I have felt this way personally in my relationships with guys – that their sexual needs are greater and more important than mine. The “demonizing” that you speak of is the backlash against a culture that caters to men’s needs before women’s. I’m not saying that it’s right, but I think that’s where it’s coming from. And of course men are going to be upset by it, because their right to dominate sexually is being called into question. I realize that most guys are not creeps and may have good intentions, but that’s not really enough. They need to spread the word around to their buddies and let them know that equality in sexual relationships requires some give and take. And it’s about pleasure for both parties involved – not just one or the other.
I don’t think you’re describing a backlash as much as a consequence of the existing dynamic. Men are the initiators, they’re the ones with the agency, who decide what they want and are expected to take it. To the extent that women have agency they are expected to decide which male desires are acceptable to them, and consent to those. This both leaves women in a subordinate role, and makes the man the ‘offender’ if his desires cause offence.
And how does the abuse of men who enjoy a sexually submissive role, or who are attracted to non-normative body types fit into your ‘backlash’ interpretation?
The things you say men need to be educated about are things most men are perfectly aware of. Yes, narcissistic rapists and abusers exist, but their problem isn’t ignorance of what an equal relationship requires; its their lack of interest in an equal relationship and perception of women as less than human.
And the suggestion that we as non-abusive men are “not doing enough” in failing to preach to abusive men smacks of right-wing accusations that Muslims do not “do enough” to condemn islamic fundamentalism. Personally, there’s nothing I enjoy more than lecturing ‘nice guys’ on how they are behaving like anything but. I don’t see behaving like me in that regard as a universal duty upon men, though, nor do I see it as something only men are capable of doing.
Preaching and lecturing is not quite what I meant. And I don’t expect you to preach to abusers. What I was trying to get at is that male sexual pleasure is still elevated above female pleasure, and I don’t think most men realize that. I’ll narrow it down to young men especially: many whom I have interacted with think only of their needs and ignore their partner’s. Not that they do so intentionally; they’re just used to getting what they want. I think that’s a problem that warrants further educating.
And you are absolutely right that both men and women can do the educating.
could it be that young guys, dont know how to please a woman? Some of them genuinely believes that having a big penis is enough. IMO there should be more information around this subject. Society still threat female sexuality as a tabu. I know, today 2013 its much better and there are more info around now than ever, but still you have to look for them and still in to many circles female sexuality are still seen as something mysterious. If we break down the silence IMO we will overcome this, and the sexual universe will become more even.
You are again trying to shame men about sex. Instead of shaming them for wanting it, you shame them for not satisfying you. The shaming needs to stop. If don’t like sex with that man you can talk to him or find a new man. You are responsible for your pleasure and he his.
What I was trying to get at is that male sexual pleasure is still elevated above female pleasure, and I don’t think most men realize that.
I have recently hooked up with a girl on three occasions. I have eaten her pussy four times. I have brought her to orgasm with my fingers many times. She is a virgin who does not want to have sex, and I respect that. I will not push her to have vaginal sex. However, she has not pleasured me. I have initiated things which are pleasurable to her in the hopes that she would return the favor. She has not, and I will not hook up with her again. In my case, the female sexual pleasure was elevated over the male sexual pleasure.
Please understand that what you see in your life is only representative of the people in your life. Incredibly broad, sweeping generalizations like yours are not accurate and show your ignorance.
I agree with you Becky.
Clarisse ask :”how can a man express his sexual needs whiteout being tarred as a creep?
What a strange question . It sounds like Clarisse fight for even more alienated sex than we already have.
Why on earth shall a man express sexual needs to a woman he is not in a relationship with?
What stops him from making friends first and get to know the woman before things get intimate?
And why are Clarisse so ashamed of her interest in sexuality that she hides her identity?
Is her description of American culture correct,then I as a European feel sorry for you all.
Making friends first almost always leads -away- from having an intimate relationships Iben. Also, she hit the description of American culture pretty head on. As someone who’s not great at talking to women, I often get told I’m creepy. In truth, I’m just terribly shy and have a bit of social anxiety.
“Why on earth shall a man express sexual needs to a woman he is not in a relationship with?”
Because if you’re in a bar, trying to hook up (as people tend to do), odds are that sex will probably come up at some point. If you go through the trouble of trying to get a lady for the night, and they’re not into anything you are and/or vice-versa, that’s a lot of wasted time and effort.
“And of course men are going to be upset by it, because their right to dominate sexually is being called into question.”
I’m not upset over that, I’m upset over the demonization of porn and sexuality where some will suggest I degrade women by looking at porn (ANY porn), annoyed that wanting sex without a relationship is somehow degrading (I am open to casual sex, also open to a relationship).
I care deeply about my partners pleasure and I suspect many men do care about their partners pleasure, why do you think so many want to know if she orgasmed? Even in a lot of porn there is quite a lot of emphasis on the actresses pleasure (albeit not all women would enjoy that type of pleasure).
“I realize that most guys are not creeps and may have good intentions, but that’s not really enough. They need to spread the word around to their buddies and let them know that equality in sexual relationships requires some give and take. And it’s about pleasure for both parties involved – not just one or the other.”
Do you tell your female friends to do the same? There are quite a lot of women who withhold sex or don’t keep the romance n sexuality alive and the relationship becomes a glorified sexless friendship if anything. From what I hear from my friends they are VERY interested in pleasuring their partners but I suspect the problem is communication between the genders and reluctance in some cases of women especially to speak up on what they like in the bedroom leaving the man having to guess what pleasures her. Of course there are also selfish men who need to be talked to, selfish women as well who need to be schooled on how to be a decent partner.
Unless someone is being a real asshole or creep about it, is it really bad for men to express their sexual desire for someone? It’s hard enough as a man where we have to chase women and rarely they ask us out first, having to guess when it’s ok to ask someone out, having to guess where the lines are where we can express our desire to date someone then to add the guesswork on when it’s ok to express sexual desire where you may be seen as a creep and at times have her tell her friends you’re a creep sullying your name, or you may luck out and everything is ok. It’s a lot of pressure and some of us give up over the fear of rejection, the fear of being seen as a creep, the feeling like you’re a perv because you actually want to ask out a woman and want a sexual relationship with them. Of course this varies heavily on your local culture, some religious areas or groups put the shame in pretty heavy for instance.
What saddens me though is how quick some are to use the creep label, Oh no someone has expressed they want sex! How dare they! And I don’t mean with guys overstepping boundaries bigtime, but times where he’s labelled a creep because he isn’t attractive enough, times where he “looks like a creep”, times where he has politely asked someone out. Not everyone uses the label decently, some women are pretty badly behaved with throwing the label around at non-threatening behaviour, or using it to describe someones looks.
Of course the most severe demonzation comes from some radfems who claim all penis in vagina sex is rape, luckily they’re few in number.
I get what you’re saying, Becky. We shouldn’t act like there aren’t creeps around. And it’s true that, historically, women’s pleasure was swept under the rug.
If you have felt this more recently, though, then I would call that a bad relationship, not systemic disregard for women.
If we really wanted to solve the issue of harassment, objectification, etc. We would tackle those issues. Instead, we just broadened the definition of harassment to include almost any male expression of sexual interest. There are other countries where you could literally ask “you wanna have sex” and *surprise* they’ll respond with yes/no instead of pepper spray.
Over here, if a guy asks “you want to go for coffee?” on an elevator, he gets ridiculed in a vlog for insulting women and sexualizing her.
What I also hear of in several cases are girls talking about how a guy was hitting on them and they didn’t like it, but she just kept a smile on her face. How is he supposed to know? She isn’t telling HIM, but hides her discomfort then spreads rumors about the guy.
Let me put it this way, if someone said “I like your boobs, you wanna have sex? I’m going to haggle you until you say yes.” The harassment part is “I’m going to haggle you until you say yes”, it is NOT “I like your boobs, you wanna have sex?”.
Next: It would be of great benefit to feminism if they ditched the idea that men are actively conspiring to dominate women. This instantly turns into bitterness against men, fear of men, disregard for men’s side of the issue, and spreads complete falsehoods.
Men simply aren’t trying to dominate women in the sense you are describing. We don’t fear this ridicule because we fear losing “tyrannical power over women”. We fear the ridicule because it represses OUR sexuality. Wasn’t one of the punchlines for women’s sexual liberation “make love, not war!”? Wasn’t the whole point encouraging people to not be afraid of sexuality?
If we actively single out straight men and demonize their sexuality instead of demonizing men who cross lines, we’re taking a big step backward, and you can expect that it would hurt public perception of women.
Comment of the year! Bravo! ALL women need to read this, ALL men too.
You start by describing all men as potential predators and that women go through their days in a state of terror, with examples. Then you wonder why men are demonized.
The idea that your comments are fantastically insulting to the vast majority of us, and that most of us love women and would never consider doing what you describe – ever – obviously doesn’t occur to you. You answered your own question.
I can only speak for myself, but in my opinion, after 60 years of age, men are judged as “creeps” no matter what, if they express their sexuality in any way. I am an educated and dignified man and I do not “hit” on women or behave inappropriately. I believe in having respect for everyone. However, It seems that once you get into your sixth decade, you are of no value to women, unless you are a celebrity or mega-rich, but then it’s only the fame or money. I am a reasonably attractive man (women used to tell me that) and for 64, stronger and more fit than most. I can bench 200 lbs, and I can do over 200 push-ups, but that means nothing in respect to sex appeal, because now I am “old” and women look right through me. It seems they only want younger men. Sex? What’s that? It does not exist in my world. One reader said all men want is sex,sex,sex. Well, all I get is nothing,nothing,nothing. “Old” men are not supposed to have sex! Our society de-values it’s older citizens, particularly men, who are tolerated, but no longer accepted. We become “non persons.” In our culture, we love to victim blame, so I am sure some of you are probably thinking that somehow, I have brought this on myself. Nothing could be farther from the truth, but you might cling to that opinion anyway because what I am saying might scare you. It might be uncomfortable for you to believe that this is real, but for me, it’s all too real. I have just stopped trying, it’s a waste of time. Besides, if I try to flirt, I will most likely be accused of being creepy (eeyew!) or even worse, end up on some sex offender registry. So I am going to concentrate on staying fit and healthy and go back to being a grad student so I can keep my mind sharp. I have to accept the fact that “old” means “alone” ….and creepy, too. Call me bitter if you wish, but I am just telling it like it is.
Sexegenarian, I don’t think you sound bitter. Do you pursue women your own age or younger women? I have been hit on by men 20, 30 and even 40 years my senior. I have turned these men down because I did feel that some of their ages where too old for me.
I do think you make a fair point about how our society devalues older people. Although, I guess I see this more clearly with women than men. I’m not sure I agree with you that older men are more devalued BUT you obviously have experienced that and your experience is worthy to talk about.
Erin
Thanks. It does not matter what age the women are. Your point about older women being more devalued is a good one, and perhaps the more accurate thing to say is both genders are depreciated about the same way, but grandma is still the more valued from what I can see. Its rather like being an old car, except we never become “classic.” Anyway, I refuse to let it break my spirit, although it does hurt sometimes. Thank you for your response , nice to know someone actually cares!
Hi
Welcome to Scandinavia.
We need more men like you,and I promise you will not be invisible.
Sincere Iben
Dear Iben
Thank you. Funny you should say that, because I always did get much more female attention outside of the USA! Nice to hear that I could be valued somewhere! Gives me renewed hope!
Don’t give up hope compadre. You simply need to find the right venue. There are a lot of women in their 50′s and early 60′s who are widowed or divorced and who are not into “little boys”. You simply have to go to where they are as they are unlikely to come looking for you, and they may be shy from having been burned as well. Going back to Grad School is probably not a bad idea and I don’t mean for meeting “cute little co-eds”. There are single older female professors who are interested in companionship as well. Dancing is a good activity – Ballroom or whatever is most popular in your area. There are “get togethers” in all sort of social settings. Libraries do frequent special activities from authors to music. Frequent a gym that has a lot of middle aged and above women who use it. It depends upon your intellectual and social interests. There are plenty of opportunities if you look in the right places. You just need to do a little research and exploration.
Unfortunetly, I think that a lot of women feel threatened and defensive against male sexuality because alot of male sexuality in our pop-culture environment is represented as predatory and violent. Pop culture doesn’t do a great job representing sexuality for men AND women. And real men in the everyday world suffer the backlash of that. If we can break away from those representations, perhaps we can come to a place where men expressing their sexuality is not something women need to be threatened by. But as it stands, how pop-culture showcases male sexuality, it is threatening and women have taken the stance that since no one else is going to protect them, they need to do it themselves. Of course, sometimes women miss out on great oppurtunities to be open to men and their sexuality. But sometimes the risk doesn’t out weight the reward.
I think men need to pay attention to how the media protrays their sexuality. And I am not just talking about the stories about men raping other people or being violent. I am talking about the things that are used to lure us in. Look at how music videos portray male sexuality. Look at the kind of articles that are written about male sexuality. I remember one in my younger years when I wanted to learn about men, reading an article in Maxim. The article was calling something along the lines of, “How to Check out Other women while your with your girlfriend”. It went on to give tips on how men can fake affection to their girlfriends just so they could steal peeks at other women. These things do men no favors because it puts women automatically on the defensive. Look at how porn also portrays male sexuality. I have talked ad nauseum about this subject regarding women. But porn does alot to represent men poorly too. Men’s sexuality is showcased as violent and often over-whelming.
I think if we are going to break these chains, men need to be more vocal and authentic about themselves, women and sex. They need to be honest about the kind of media the might even like and enjoy and the messages it might be sending about men. And we all need to fight fair. I think that the key is vulnerability, authenticity and honesty from men. And that’s not easy for any of us sometimes.
If I could give people advice about sexuality, it would be to throw away all the maxims, dolly, women’s n men’s magazines since I find they’re mostly full of shit. If you want to learn try some of the online health forums with decent moderation where people share tips or find out from proper sex therapists.
Pop-culture and pro porn especially show terribly narrow views of male sexuality, I’m glad I had google when I was learning about sex as I found guides written by people who seemed to give good advice, no bullshit, just plain solid advice.
Even if you believed in what the mags tell you, you wouldn’t have to buy more than one. They pretty much say the same thing issue after issue, so if that one issue’s advice didn’t work, you don’t need to read any more issues.
Male sexuality is demonized because so many people fall into the trap of thinking men are the same. There are gross generalizations of porn for instance that are so far off the mark that I wonder if the commenters truly watch much porn, those generalizations add to this view of porn being bad n sexist towards women ALL the time (a generalization) and that shames n demonizes males who look at it (so many often fail to realize how many women watch porn.
Thanks for posting this article, Clarisse. It has a lot of good things to say as well as a few dicey bits to discuss. The comments are good, too. (Archy you’re still my hero for noting that many women watch porn, too; and MrSuperTypo, you make an excellent point about young hetero males needing some “non-porn provided” information on how to please women.)
I wanted to point out an unfortunate thing in the comments of that “Curvature” article on male rape being “callously dismissed” that you linked here, however. The writer Cara responded with vicious and cuss-out riddled anger to a male survivor (Toysoldier, whom I’ve admired as a commenter on similar issues before) for expressing his views and sharing his experiences. As a male survivor myself, I was horrified; she also banned him from her blog. Other commenters tried to point out how disturbing her angry, foul-language ridden and attacking response was, how they felt it “undermined her credibility” and made them lose respect for her, but her responses amount to a “tough, deal with it” attitude and she only gives excuses for her behavior. She explains her misperception of what Toysoldier said, which wasn’t what I got out of his comments, and being banned, he couldn’t defend himself further. This undermined her whole article for me. I’m left with the thought, “With feminist allies to male survivors like this, who needs enemies?”
I just wanted to make you aware of this. I know you were linking the article and you’re not able to control the comments there, but I felt readers here deserved a warning. Stumbling over that was triggering to me to say the least. It’s a shame.
I feel if one is going to claim the role of advocate, they should operate with a decent level of professionalism, and not attack a member of the very group their article was written in support of. Unfortunate. This, however, is the sort of doublespeak male survivors of adult rape and child sexual abuse often encounter when we dare to discuss rape issues with some (not all) feminists. Misandry, in my opinion, is just as damaging as misogyny to the efforts of all of us to understand each other better.
I do see this, it’s bizarre to me (I work in the sex industry, as a professional dominatrix, I’m a lifestyle submissive) and people do equate kinkiness in men with creepiness (in women it’s usually not acknowledged or treated as a sign that we’re either complicit when we get raped, when we’re submissive, or angry man hating harpies, when we’re dominant). I’m a fetishist (a trichophiliac, meaning I’m sexually attracted to human head hair… specifically for me, long haired men, and very into a variety of other things, including the idea of getting breast implants) my husband has a fetish for women with breast implants, and he was absolutely worried he’d scare me off when he mentioned it after we started messaging on okcupid, needless to say, I was overjoyed rather than creeped out, because most men are like “OH NO NATURAL IS ALWAYS BEST” (a view that totally ignores what I want to do with my own damned body) and so um yes.
The only way a man can avoid being demonized about his sexuality is to 1) be hot and 2) not be afraid of being called the c-word. It’s just a catch-all term for women to describe men that they’re not immediately and overwhelmingly attracted to. Its overuse has rendered it completely ineffectual — on the same level as “epic.” Now that I think of it, any time a girl uses this in the presence of a man, his immediate response should be, “Dude! That was so EPIC!”
While I agree that it’s become a catch all term, I don’t believe it’s ineffectual. If I might illustrate with an example from my own experience:
I once attempted to make a professional contact at a convention where I’d been invited as a guest. During one of the times I wasn’t speaking to an audience or talking to fans, I went to a presentation given to the person I was trying to meet. The schedule listed half of her time as meet-and-greet time, so I figured I’d listen to her talk, then go up and introduce myself.
The talk was quite informative. Unfortunately quite a few folks had the same idea I did, and some of them chatted for quite a while. I took a seat and waited , as I’m a rather large male and most of them were itty bitty, and all of the others were female, and I didn’t want to give the impression of bulling in. I struck up a conversation with some of the young ladies waiting with me to pass the time. The end of the meet-and-greet time arrived, and we had to clear the room for the next event in the room. I don’t think I even managed to get in a ‘Hi, good to meet you, thanks for the informative talk!’ with the woman I was there to speak with. I shrugged, moved on, and went to meet with my next panel partners.
The person I’d been trying to meet labelled me a creep. Note that I’d barely *spoken* with the woman beyond a question or two during the Q&A section of her presentation, nor had I any intent whatsoever in a personal direction. Folks who are friends of mine were asking me ‘what did you *do*?’ and others, who I’d never met, now thought of me as ‘the creepy guy’. Not a happy thing for me professionally, and on a personal level I’m still shaken by it. I can be labeled as ‘creepy’, with the implications of being pushy, demanding, and somehow predator-ish just by sitting waiting for someone to have a few moments to introduce myself as a new professional in the field.
Now, I generally agree with Scalzi on this one – if I’m creeping someone out, I’m going to give them space. For all I know, they’ve been harassed by someone who bears some physical resemblance to me, and I don’t want to hurt anybody if I can reasonably avoid it.
tl;dr version – the word still has power. If you’re refusing to accept unfair labels, good for you, but you may still suffer consequences. If you’re just ignoring the opinions of someone who uses it… I may ahve some bad news for you.
The mixed messages that society gives must be very confusing if you dont understand that there is no such thing as society. Society isnt real, it therefore cannot tell men anything. At times large number of people say and believe and say the same things, which gives us the illusion that there is a collective mind. But larger the population the wider range of voices will be heard, hence it sounds like this “society” is giving men mixed messages.
Men need to ask themselves and only themselves what is right for them to do.
Thank you for coming along and enlightening us, oh wise one. Of course we thought society was an actual hivemind, like the borg off of ‘Star Trek’, and we totally weren’t using it as a way of referring to the balance of messages received from media, peers, parents, educators, and other groups of actual people who have an influence on the lives of men.
And of course you are correct that the solution to this (and to all problems) is for people to spontaneously know the right thing to do, through sheer ineffable gnosis, without any information changing hands.
Excellent article, and a brave one. The threat of rape is a very real one, but one can not, or at least should not, twist one’s life around it. Crime can happen whether we are prepared or unprepared, so be prepared, but don’t go through life expecting it, or you end up sexually harassing yourself. And it’s very important to remember that Women are not only raped by men. I know as many women who have been raped by other women as I do those who have been raped by men.
Putting aside criminals for a second, for a man to approach a woman in the way that makes her feel great about it it’s not astrology that makes it happen–it’s practice. There’s nothing inherently evil about a guy approaching ignorantly. In fact the least appealing approaches are usually from the most earnest, inexperienced men. So many women brush those guys off as creeps and then complain bitterly when the guy who meets their high standards is a player. But what are the options? And why are the women so unforgiving to a well-meaning clod, who might turn out to be the man of her dreams with a little more experience?
And let’s not underestimate the scorn of women or the label of creep. While a woman bestowing “creep” on a guy simultaneously condemns him AND puts him in the position of dominance while she becomes the submissive, it has quite the opposite effect on the guy. If he’s well-meaning or inexperienced, it can be crushing–there are plenty of guys who have only approached one or two women in their lives. They were told off and became the women-haters that the women fear most (yup guys ARE that sensitive). Even worse, labeling a guy a creep can lead to social ostracism or even getting fired and black-listed, something that I’ve seen unscrupulous women use against business rivals. It can be very dangerous.
Back to rapists– it’s a serious threat to anyone, anyplace. At the same time, there are some parts of the world where it’s a more immediate threat than others–places where the authorities or society will not defend a women and may even condemn her for being a victim. Ironically, women from those places are often much more expert at flirting and social interactions than American women and women where their rights are more respected. In those other places, flirting can be a better survival skill than karate–it puts women in control of the social interaction.
When women put men in a double-bind, assertive men are creeps, non assertive men are wimps, it creates a situation where NO ONE is happy. I think most women want a guy to approach, but in the right way, and most guys want to approach, but they don’t want to risk being arrested just for asking for a phone number. As such women are in the position of total control, whether they accept it or not– treating every putz who says hello as a rapist is a comfortable safe position for a woman who’s given her life to celibacy, but if she wants to be asked out, it’s up to her to get out of her comfort zone and let the guys approach, even when they tip over their own weenies sometimes.
I think there is a gaping chasm in how we teach sexual expression (or more accurately, LACK of said education) and what we teach sexual harassment to be.
Sexual harassment is harassment. It’s haggling someone until they do what you want. It’s not respecting a “no”. Gender neutral.
What we TEACH is that sexual harassment is a man saying anything sexual to a woman. It’s specific to straight, cis men.
How do I know this? Ask a lesbian about women. Ask a gay man about men. Heck, ask a gay guy about women. They can say the raunchiest, BDSM imagery and people are like “you go girl”, and call it a healthy expression of sexuality.
The moment a straight guy udders anything of the sort, it is labeled “systemic misogyny”, or the guy is a creeper, or perverted, etc. Did he actually do anything wrong? NO! But his options for expressing himself are far more limited than a woman or LGBT.
We are condemning the WRONG THING.
-The problem is not men with “wandering eyes”, the problem was ridiculing women with wandering eyes.
-The problem is not men wanting to have sex with women, the problem was acting like women shouldn’t want to have sex with men.
-The problem of sexual harassment is not sexuality, the problem is not respecting each other’s boundaries.
It makes me wonder why we have so much trouble differentiating between these things. And it worries me that we have to convince people that this is a real problem.
the real question is, why is it OK for attractive/hot guys to express their needs or desires towards someone but guys who are fat or unattractive are demonized as complete and total scum/creepers if they even so much as glance in a womans general direction, let alone try to initiate conversation. I can’t count how many times i have casually been in town and happened to glance one way or another and accidentally make eye contact with an attractive woman who instantly glares at me and heads the other direction as if i’m some kind of rapist or serial killer.
Hi, I just wanted to say thank you for writing this article. I never really could put words to these types of pressures, and it’s incredibly comforting knowing that there are people out there talking about this.
Being called a creep IS really damaging, no doubt about it.
great article – i also wrote 2 articles recently about the current state of the masculine and feminine.
http://www.waykiwayki.com/2013/05/beltane-part1-suppressed-feminine.html
http://www.waykiwayki.com/2013/05/beltane-part-2-suppressed-masculine.html
.
Thanks for this article. It confirmed a few things I’ve had bouncing in my head, enlightened me on others, and gave words to some I’d never really been able to express, even to myself.
I’m in a situation where I’m the de facto role model for a fair number of young men. One thing I’ve had a hard time expressing to them is the difference between accepting their own sexuality and forcing it on someone else. All too many think it’s a both-or-neither situation, and that opinion is constantly reinforced by the media they’re exposed to.
While talking with one of them, I hit upon the following way to explain the difference after he’d run out of the room to get a better look at a passing pair of young ladies. When he returned, muttering to himself about the glory of the vision he’d just beheld, I said to him “Okay, do you know that feeling you get when you look at them? That’s entirely inside your head, and there’s nothing wrong with feeling that way. It simply means ‘you like girls’ and ‘you think those girls are attractive’. The problem comes with assuming that feeling inside your head implies *anything at all* about *the girls*, like ‘oh, they’re (insert epithet here).” I saw the light come on at that point; for at least a moment he realized his own desire was fine, but it was *his* desire, and implied nothing about the persons he desired. His reply, only half facetious, was ‘You mean me wanting them doesn’t mean they want me, nor does it mean they don’t want me, it just means I want them? Maybe I should go talk to them or something.’
Of course, then we had to have a little discussion about tact, discretion, and how both of those improve the odds of young ladies *returning* his interest, because he *had* gone galloping off to his better vantage point like a bull moose in mating season. But… baby steps.
I’m surprised no-one has mentioned this yet, but it isn’t as simple as “anyone has the right to express their sexual desire, and not offend the person they are propositioning.” When a guy I have never met approaches me in public to “let me know about his sexual desire for me” in whatever polite or impolite way he does so, he is effectively saying “I think your body is attractive and have very little interest in your mind or who you are.” Because he has decided that what he thinks about my appearance is more important than anything else. I’m now expected to decide based on only HIS physical appearance whether or not I find him attractive. (Not to mention, that this is often happening several times a day when maybe we have other things we want to be doing than spending long amounts of time making sure we didn’t hurt the feelings of the guy who thought he’d flatter us by telling us how great of a job we are doing at being an object he would like to oggle/have sexual desires about.) There’s a reason we are abrupt. I don’t think we have to go so far as to label these guys a creep, but I also don’t think we are obligated to be “flattered” by their judgment of our bodies.
A few points of order on this –
“he is effectively saying “I think your body is attractive and have very little interest in your mind or who you are.” ”
Not really – he’s saying “Something about your physical form attracts me.” In some cases, that’s all he’s interested in, but in most cases, he’s looking to start the conversation where he can find out whether he finds your mind or who you really are attractive. Our first level of contact is the physical, our first attraction is to the physical, and there is *nothing wrong with that*. Some people only have that level. Some people only want that level. If you want more, turn them down and move on. With that in mind…
“we have other things we want to be doing than spending long amounts of time making sure we didn’t hurt the feelings of the guy who thought he’d flatter us … There’s a reason we are abrupt”
You can respond quickly without being abrupt. Replying to “You’re attractive” with “Thank you” isn’t abrupt, it’s polite. Replying to “Let’s copulate” with “No, thank you.” is, again, not abrupt, just polite. In both cases you’re acknowledging an apparently sincere compliment and moving on. At that point, if he’s hurt, you’re not the cause. If he pushes, he’s crossed a line and you have every right to be abrupt (or more than abrupt) as required.
In case you’re wondering, I’ve used this to effect. I get (COMPLETELY inappropriate) comments on how pretty my eyes are, and I respond with “Thank you” and then move on, only allowing it to derail my day if the person pushes past the obvious deflection, at which point I will explain why it’s inappropriate, and I’m no longer trying to preserve their feelings, I’m trying to educate them to avoid future repetitions. I’m working with folks who are particularly immature, and I still only get maybe one in five pushing, and repeat offenses are nearly nonexistent. *shrug* It works, and it doesn’t take a lot of time.
“I also don’t think we are obligated to be “flattered” by their judgment of our bodies”
The truth of your statement is (or should be) obvious; you’re NOT obligated to do anything, and I think it’s healthier to take a compliment as it’s intended than to become offended. This is a case where the impact of another’s actions can be substantially altered by your perception, and saying “twenty five guys thought I was attractive today” is, on balance, a healthier thought than “twenty five guys ignored my mind and accomplishments today”.
“When a guy I have never met approaches me in public to “let me know about his sexual desire for me” in whatever polite or impolite way he does so, he is effectively saying “I think your body is attractive and have very little interest in your mind or who you are.” Because he has decided that what he thinks about my appearance is more important than anything else.”
See this is the problem some women have about dating, you are viewing it as he is only interested in your body, but you are wrong. He hasn’t shown you that he is ONLY interested in your body, he has just shown interest in you based on the little he knows from your looks. Just because he hasn’t had time to make a decision on your personality doesn’t mean he isn’t interested in you as a person. Why is this so hard for some women to understand? He’s sexually attracted to her based off looks, it doesn’t at all imply her worth is only in her looks…how could it? I see plenty of very attractive women whom I may jump straight into bed with given the chance (I am single, if I was dating I wouldn’t need to) but that doesn’t mean I am only interested in their body but it means I am sexually attracted to how they look whilst I am fully open to getting to know their personality. BIG Difference…it doesn’t have to be either or. The only thing he would imply is that so far he’s sexually attracted by your looks and if so many women choose to view his actions as as ONLY wanting her body then it’s the women who are at fault and causing their own objectification. Someone showing interest in you sexually based off your looks is not objectifying you unless he flat out refuses to see you as human and doesn’t care for your personality, if he’s just met you then there’s no chance to know if he cares about your body above your personality. Not everyone needs to know someones personality in depth to have sex, that doesn’t at all mean they value someones body above their personality but it simply means they can have sex based off looks alone.
Just because someone desires something from another based on one attribute doesn’t mean they don’t value that person as a human nor does it mean they are putting your looks above your personality in how they judge you. I don’t see the check-out person at the supermarket as only valuable to me based on their service, I see them as humans doing a job which for the time being they provide a service I require and the future is completely unset. You can maybe say it’s shallow to have sex based on looks alone but it doesn’t mean that person ONLY values your looks, it can very well mean that you are a sexually attractive woman and at that time he wants to have consenting sex with you for both of your pleasure and the future is unset. Even if your looks are the main reason he wants to have sex with you, that doesn’t mean your looks at the most important to him ALWAYS. There are many possibilities, you may go on to date then get married or you may both go your separate ways, if you choose to view it so negatively though it’s always going to offend you. On first meeting you only get to see a person, so far the attraction can only be physical and for some that is enough to get the ball rolling.
I can maybe jump into bed with someone I’ve just met and start learning their personality after a few seconds of meeting them, just after my physical attraction has been triggered or not. You can gauge a small part of their personality by their dress sense, are they at a place where there is a hobby? Do they appear to be happy? When you first speak to them then the way you speak, your body language, what you say all influence his judgement on your personality, the whole time from Hello to the bedroom he has to learn of your personality. It will be mostly/if not all a physical attraction for THAT time but the future is unset. Do you think he will only ever like you for your looks or are you annoyed that someone can be sexually attracted based off looks and desire sex from that? Because it’s pretty damn normal to be sexually attracted to the point of desiring sex within the first few seconds of meeting someone for many people, I get that feeling many times per day depending on who I meet. Never do I value a personality as less or more than physical looks, I value both but for casual sex you can get away with a mostly physical attraction. Viewing looks and personality on some scale where it’s “proper” to value personality more is a bit foolish I think. Some of us are perfectly fine getting to know someone whilst having casual sex beforehand.
You may feel that is shallow and not for you but don’t assume your personality is meaningless, it’s not an either/or game. You are not MEAT automatically just because someone has physical attraction to you. If in the process of talking he treats you like meat, cares nothing of your personality and doesn’t respect you as human then yeah that is wrong, but for casual sex and physical attraction at the start of a potential relationship it is too early to really judge what he thinks of you and his ideas of your personality. If he grabs you against your will, sexually abuses you on meeting THEN he is not treating you like a human. If only being physically attracted to someone based on limited time with them means that person is meat then every human probably treats others like meat.
Archy, I wish I could express my thoughts even half as well as you have here. I wish every woman could read what you have said, since what you said was brilliant. If wanting to hump someone automatically meant that I -only- see them as a piece of meat, I would literally have zero friends today.
Thank-you. I hope I can continue helping to explain myself and other peoples feeling on the matter. If the genders saw each other in a less negative way, life would be soooo much better!
First of all I would agree that there’s something animalistic about propositioning someone for sex based entirely on casual observation. I think it’s also an attitude men are trained by society to take; a young man who expresses disinterest in a beautiful stranger risks being labelled homosexual or inadequate by other men. Also, while some men may be doing this in an animalistic way, others will have been conditioned by movies and other media to believe in love at first sight.
So while some men who ask you out may be beasts who care nothing for your mind, the hopeless romantic sees beauty as a kind of foreshadowing of romance. He doesn’t regard you in a shallow way; he thinks that you have hidden depths. This is, of course, assuming that they are basing their attraction on facial symmetry, breast size, and other objective criteria.
What’s sad about your post is the extent to which you seem alienated from your own physicality. What people see when they look at your body is not just your body. They are not looking at a corpse. They see your body animated by your mind. They see a constant stream of body language, they hear your voice, see your smile. Your physicality is not an opaque wall hiding your mind and subjective experience; it provides a small window onto these things.
Your clothes, too, say more about you than whether you are a well-dressed piece of meat. Your clothes convey further information about you, about your sense of aesthetics and style and how you choose to project yourself to the world. Some of those choices may be attractive for reasons that are not immediately apparent.
I don’t proposition random women myself, but I can think back to the last two times I basically adored someone from the moment I saw them. The first was a friendly woman who was dressed in a way that made her look fierce, professional, organised. I wondered if she was a lawyer (she wasn’t.) The second was a tousle-haired tomboy dressed in such an androgynous way that I could only just barely tell that she wasn’t a boy. She quickly made it apparent that she was both courageous and highly competent.
I’m not going to tell you how to deal with guys who compliment or proposition you. I’m sure some of them are complete jackasses. But I think you should give the male sex some credit for being capable of appreciating women’s subjectivity, and not being animals merely interested in their crass object-qualities.
Another thing that troubles me about this issue is that I’m pretty sure there are a lot of people who really need to hear that they’re beautiful, for whom it would make their day; as well as a lot of people who are heartily sick of hearing it, and still more people who would be fine with hearing it as long as it wasn’t the prelude to a shitty come-on.
“Compassion without honesty is sentimentality, but honesty without compassion is brutality.”
Not everything that is the truth has to be shared every way every time. Sexual talk is a sexual act in and of itself, and boundaries should be respected.
There is a lot of talk these days about slut-shaming, but what about boundary-shaming, bonding-shaming. What if I don’t want to be a slut? What if I don’t want to wear tight clothes or low-cut blouses? What if I only want to have sex with someone with whom I have fallen in love after knowing him for years and years? What if I don’t want to hear about every dude’s sexual fetishes? What if I don’t want him speculating about mine?
Boundaries! That’s when it becomes creepy—when they tread on my boundaries. There is nothing wrong with keeping some things to yourself. Like, for instance, if you see someone and think that he is really fat, you do not need to blurt out, hey, you are really fat. Similarly, if you don’t know that the person is consenting to that kind of conversation or interaction, then shut your trap and keep it to yourself.
“What if I don’t want him speculating about mine?”
In that particular case, you don’t get to dictate what goes on in someone else’s mind. You should not be allowed to prevent someone from speculating about you, at least not if it’s merely internal speculating. Telling someone to stop thinking something about you is itself a boundary violation.
I think she means when they TALK about it, not just think it.
Also, this site needs to be more clear about which branching of the feminist tree it is watering here. Or is it supposed to be both sides? Frankly, I find most of the sex-positive, pro-pornography junk to be misogynistic apologists. I read some good articles on this sight. Then I stumble across articles from the other side of the feminist fence and feel less safe here.
Who said this site had to cater to feminists? This is a site for men, feminists need to deal with it, they don’t get to tell the men what to do or say. There are plenty of places they can already control the conversation.
“I’m feeling unsafe” is the great license nowadays to say or do whatever the hell you want to without being held accountable and without having to be consistent or evidentiary. It’s ironic that some forms of feminism and the “stand your ground” gun lobby are sounding more and more like each other. The political spectrum does seem to curve around on itself as you get further to the left and right…..
The double bind here for us is of course if one appears to have no sexual desire one becomes less attractive. I certainly wouldn’t be attracted to a woman who appeared to have no sexual appetite, so I can hardly expect a woman to be attracted to me when I give the impression that I’m aesexual. And yet if we are open about sexual desire we do run the risk of being seen as creeps. I’m glad this is being talked about.